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Stolen IBM Carbines From Factory, 1944 |
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Jond41403 
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Joined: Feb 21 2021 Location: East Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 874 |
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 Posted: May 13 2025 at 2:42pm |
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I also wonder being wartime, if the government didn't have some kind of overseer or undercover agent in every single plant that made carbines. That was a lot of government money in parts being handled by everyday citizens not to mention the threat of sabotage being wartime. You would think the security would be very tight at these various plants that made the carbines. Don't Guess the security at IBM was that great though haha, at least not during that time frame of the robbery
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painter777
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 4:07pm |
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At this point in 44 as a country, we were already on guard. President Roosevelt had created the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD), who had already started training civilian volunteers for countless duties like Coast Watchers, Air Raid Wardens, Civil Guards training in rifle marksmanship, Rescue Squads.....etc. All this started before Japan hit us in Dec of 41. Ships getting sunk off the East coast by German U boats. People were on their toes concerned about a possible homeland invasion. Remember we had Japanese/Americans interned. I wouldn't expect the level security of say a Ordnance Plant or Oak Ridge or Los Alamos would of had, but I'd believe workers/people at the time would be looking out for Saboteurs. So like any Thief, these guys found a opportunity they thought would work..... That Didn't
Ch-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Jond41403
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 5:00pm |
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That's a great point about the mood of the country during this time frame Charlie.I wonder if there's any other small robbery stories that's yet to be uncovered from other plants that made carbines? I didn't know about the one we're talking about now until Pete51577 posted about it. Makes one wonder if there are more similar stories at the other various manufacturers, especially the ones that didn't already make firearms. If the companies like quality hardware, IBM, rockola etc kept their normal/regular employees after changing over to the government contract, seems those type employees would be more tempted to take gun parts and steal them than employees that already worked at say like Winchester that made guns all the time.
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 8:52pm |
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So I have the request into the FBI archives via FOIA for records on this case. I hope they come through and aren't lost in an archive somewhere.
Some great questions and insights here so far. I've continued doing research and I found some more articles in local newspapers that I'll post. I had to use my phone to take pictures as there was no function to clip and copy the relevant articles. As you'll see, the guard situation was a thing....it looks like they were investigated for a bit then cleared of wrong-doing. These guys seem to have been removing bits for months, with one report saying the pieces were "artfully concealed." So many questions!! I hope we will get more answers with more documents soon (ish?)
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 9:26pm |
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The following clippings are from The Beacon News, 1944:
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 9:26pm |
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 9:27pm |
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 9:28pm |
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 9:29pm |
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Matt_X
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Posted: May 13 2025 at 11:22pm |
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Pete, Sometimes the web browser's screenshot function will not work, or just isn't convenient. A good freeware/shareware program is Irfan View. https://www.irfanview.com/ I have it setup with icons [aka shortcuts] for both the thumbnail viewer, and the single image viewer on the desktop. Open the viewer, then either go to Options->capture, or just hit C on the keyboard. Then save the image as a jpg or png file to whatever folder you want. You can also type some info onto the image if you want. - Matt |
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Pete51577
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Posted: May 14 2025 at 7:12pm |
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Thank you Matt!
Fantastic info here that will absolutely help!
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Pete51577
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Posted: Sep 27 2025 at 10:59pm |
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Well that took a minute!
I started a FOIA request with the FBI back in April/May asking for any documents related to this case. After having to shift the request over to the National Archives, I was informed that there were 24 pages of documents regarding this case of stolen carbines from the IBM Poughkeepsie plant. Just yesterday I received copies of the 24 pages electronically. What fascinating stuff!!! And yes, there are serial numbers listed in the documents! I would love to be able to post the entire PDF of the 24 pages here. Amazing primary resource. Does anyone know how to do that? There were ALOT of parts stolen by the two men, and the details revealed in the documents give a ton of insight into the plant, manufacturing, and the operations at a Carbine factory. There were 10 full carbines taken and parts enough to make quite a few more. Of the 10 listed fully assembled stolen Carbines, only 5 had serial numbers, and the rest were without serial numbers, likely taken before they were stamped. Here are the five: 3821916 3357436 3875642 3836743 3787758 There were also 3 receivers with barrels attached that had serial numbers: 3923104 3929125 3923069 Fun stuff! I'd love to get the whole PDF posted! |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, How Can I help Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 5527 |
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Posted: Sep 28 2025 at 11:45am |
Pete, Email me the PDF and I can link it like I do with featured carbines.
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Jond41403
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Posted: Sep 28 2025 at 9:19pm |
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very cool Pete! I can't wait to read those pages! Thank you for your time and effort regarding this
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Pete51577
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Posted: Sep 28 2025 at 10:05pm |
My pleasure, truly. I can't wait for everyone to have access to the 24 pages of FBI files on this. Some VERY interesting things, and very much a glimpse into WW2 America, the home front, and industrial production of these carbines. One of the interesting things....a West Point shooting instructor who was noted as a "champion skeet shooter" emerges as a source who had contact with the thieves....and who was potentially interested in a carbine. We forget that these little rifles were first-line military weaponry in 1944 and people saw them as cutting edge, desirable, and of course the small size meant they were even more interesting. This shooting instructor was also seen as someone who could acquire ammunition....something else we forget would have been difficult to come by. This person also helped identify the carbine as an IBM because he saw "J.L.B" stamped into the stock.....interesting that these marks and stamps we all obsess over came in quite handy in this case! The plant manager is interviewed and he informed the FBI of the different stampings on the stocks that would identify them as IBM-made. We also find out that a woman one of the thieves knew was of German ancestry and there was some speculation that the thief was passing along information to the Germans about M1 Carbine production....quite unlikely by 1944....and very much frothed up speculation....but you get a sense of how things were on the home front for sure. Tons of treasures like that in these documents. I hope people enjoy them! |
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Pete51577
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Posted: Sep 28 2025 at 10:44pm |
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One other thing to keep in mind about this case: it all happened extremely close to President Roosevelt’s home, where he often was. If ever there was an area crawling with G-men, it was Dutchess County, NY and area in the 40s! The IBM plant where the carbines were manufactured was off the same road FDR’s home was on….Route 9 (called by the locals “South Road.”) At 1940s car speeds we are talking 10 minutes between IBM and the FDR home….maybe less if you had a big 8 cylinder job.
West Point was to the south as was Stewart Air Base. I grew up in Dutchess County and still live in the area and pass both FDR and IBM daily. In 1943-44, this was NOT the area to steal stuff from the US Government!
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, How Can I help Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 5527 |
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Posted: Sep 29 2025 at 10:39am |
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Link to the FBI reports above, as well as at the top of the original post
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Pete51577
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Posted: Sep 29 2025 at 10:45am |
THANK YOU!!!!
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jackp1028
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Posted: Sep 29 2025 at 1:43pm |
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I noticed that serial number 3357436 is not an I.B.M. serial number. It belongs to Saginaw. Perhaps it is an error on the original report and should be 365... or 375... or 385... or 395.... For now, I will not be adding it to the Serial Number Spread Sheets. The other serial numbers will be added with links to this thread.
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JackP
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Pete51577
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Posted: Sep 29 2025 at 2:20pm |
Great pick-up! Likely a transcription error from 1944…..but maybe they punched a fake number on one? Though it seems best to have no numbers on them at all for their purposes.
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Pete51577 wrote: