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Requesting Assistance to Identify Correct Bolt

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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 8:58am
I've got a correct S36 bolt. 140 plus shipping. I suspect the original broke and was taken out. Could this damage have been the result of poor reloading practices? Stretched casing? Over-pressure load?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 9:08am
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

I've got a correct S36 bolt. 140 plus shipping. I suspect the original broke and was taken out. Could this damage have been the result of poor reloading practices? Stretched casing? Over-pressure load?



I'd probably discount hot reloads--he himself doesn't reload--unless he picked them up by accident at a gun show (or a fellow from his shooting range?). The recoil spring looks like it is in good shape, and measures just a tad under 10 1/4" inches. The other facets of the recoil lugs look like they are in good shape--but the left lug race shows signs of wear and bright scoring where it narrows.

I don't have a firm idea as to what a pristine LH lug race looks like for comparison. I'll google it up spend some time studying it.

If I was to suspect anything (and not to point fingers) but it might be as simple as poor-to-no lubrication leading to galling and excessive wear. The left race seems pretty chewed up for a rifle with a muzzle wear of 1.

Thanks for the offer of the S36 bolt, the price seems fair--I will keep you advised.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Eight_Ring Eight_Ring wrote:

Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I’m still trying to figure out just how that happened. Looks like it was purposely done with a punch from the rear, but one would need to have been there to see whatever happened at the time I suppose.


I know what you are saying--I am having a hard time visualizing how the left lug could have been the leading point of the impact forces--but I don't know the carbine. Wouldn't the bolt face have galled before the lug recess?

Inre: mags--unfortunately MA is a ban state, and mags must have been made before 1994, which only leaves USGI as the alternative. $60 for 2 mags isn't going to break the bank--but it would be nicer if it was for 4 mags (lol).



Your behind enemy lines, that sucks. My suggestion is J&G Sales. They have unissued USGI WWII mags if those are legal to get to you, plus "shooter" grade used USGI

https://www.jgsales.com/magazines-c-332_190_197.html

Shame you can't get the KCI mags. I've been testing 8 I got end of last year and so far have had good luck with them, I'm planning on more after I see what my Trump bucks look like and what Memorial Day sales are (I could end up with another Carbine in the stash with my Trump Bucks      )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 9:46am
Originally posted by DonFlynn DonFlynn wrote:

Originally posted by Eight_Ring Eight_Ring wrote:

Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I’m still trying to figure out just how that happened. Looks like it was purposely done with a punch from the rear, but one would need to have been there to see whatever happened at the time I suppose.


I know what you are saying--I am having a hard time visualizing how the left lug could have been the leading point of the impact forces--but I don't know the carbine. Wouldn't the bolt face have galled before the lug recess?

Inre: mags--unfortunately MA is a ban state, and mags must have been made before 1994, which only leaves USGI as the alternative. $60 for 2 mags isn't going to break the bank--but it would be nicer if it was for 4 mags (lol).



Your behind enemy lines, that sucks. My suggestion is J&G Sales. They have unissued USGI WWII mags if those are legal to get to you, plus "shooter" grade used USGI

https://www.jgsales.com/magazines-c-332_190_197.html

Shame you can't get the KCI mags. I've been testing 8 I got end of last year and so far have had good luck with them, I'm planning on more after I see what my Trump bucks look like and what Memorial Day sales are (I could end up with another Carbine in the stash with my Trump Bucks      )


I will check those mags out--thanks.

Having the Korean mags as an alternative is great for shooters in Free America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 4:26pm
If you understand the Garand sequence of operation, you can certainly apply that to the carbine. The bolt closes under operating spring rebound and there simply seems to be no way bolt-return on it’s on caused that. 

It’s been mentioned previously, but the carbine has a floating FP with a receiver bridge-cut to catch the FP tang and prevent OOB discharges. You will need to examine that fitment closely before it is fired again. I have experienced one OOB discharge in a commercial 30-06 and it is not comfortable to experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 5:29pm
FWIW,
I've never seen a broken left lug on a bolt.
Both the left and right locking shoulders look ok on your receiver.
Cause of 'Peened' metal in the left rail:
Maybe the Extractor was tossed.... 
Or bolts right lug broke away.
Could keep guessing but that wont get you up and running.

You'll need to try a file or Roto tool with a fine grinding wheel to knock off the sharp outer edges on the 'Peened' area you point to.
You'll also need to gently stone the top and bottom edges of the 'Wavy' bottom track on the receiver to de-burr it.
Check both rails the bolt lugs ride on/in for burrs.
Also check the grooves where the Op slide rear and inner front pads ride in for burrs.
Any interruption to the slide..... be it burrs or lack of lube can cause bolt lug damage.

I'll try a picture here to give you a template to see what your looking to achieve.


Good Luck and Stay Safe,
Charlie-Painter777

PS: I agree she looks dry. Dry metal on Dry metal will build shavings that can appear peened.
When you Stone, Use no grease. Use a light film of oil... LIGHT. Also makes it easier to clean away metal shavings... much easier than shavings caught in grease, when your done.
The metal here on these receivers are softer than many realize.
You got this!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 5:44pm
8Rings Pic:
Open this image in a new tab to see magnified.




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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 7:22pm
I'd suspect the left lug over-rotated because of something else that happened but it didn't dig in straight down. It probably traveled as it dug in making a rounded crater. Look at the other side of the receiver in the slide cut, the outside of the receiver where the slide tab rides. Is it wallowed out? Doesn't sound like it would be with the minor bore usage measured. Maybe check the slide tab for spec? If everything else is ok, it doesn't seem like the divot is going to harm operation. Check the head space with a replacement bolt. Make sure there's no burr on the receiver behind the left lug.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2020 at 10:54pm
I'm gonna throw out a theory here. I wonder if the barrel was slightly loose and someone used a punch on that spot to move metal to tighten up the barrel? Looks to me like that is a possibility. Just a WAG, but it would fit what I see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 7:11am
Is it just me, or does the barrel skirt look a bit roughed-up? Blowing up the picture, I think I see some definite tool-marks along the left side like die-grinder tracks.

I would not spend the $ for a correct bolt yet. I think something smells a little fishy here. I’d pick-up a generic GI bolt (if you can’t borrow one) to load and see if everything shakes out. It just looks like somebody has tried to correct a problem, which might still exist.


Edited by floydthecat - Apr 12 2020 at 10:29am
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Smokpole View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 7:23pm
You know Floyd, that goes with what I was looking at. Poor barrel fit and someone tried to correct it and Bubba'ed the job. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 10:20pm
FloydTheCat/Smokpole--

I don't know anything about fitting loose barrels or how to remedy them, but when I first inspected the receiver my initial impression was that somebody had been running it way too dry and way too dirty--and what I was looking at in the bright metal on the raceway was the galling of unlubricated metal surfaces.

What first caught my eye on the LH rail (especially where it narrows to almost nothing) was the bright worn metal that seemed to be gouged (almost skived) by the bolt travelling forward, which leads directly to the peened area. It was the center area where the milling narrows on the raceway to almost nothing that concerned me the most--but again, I don't know carbines or what guides the bolt along in its track.

As I inspect the areas where the bolt face would meet the receiver and rotate going into battery I am seeing similar signs of uneven-ness and galling. I'm not seeing any signs of mechanical grinding.

I think it might be best to approach the receiver's viability with guarded skepticism, stone away burrs and address the peening, and then headspace it with the least expensive good-condition bolt I can find, and then just see if the old girl runs.

If it fails to run reliably, that would be a damn shame--it's a nice little rifle with original parts, and there are some tough decisions ahead for the owner. It could either be a non-firing piece--or a honey of a parts kit.

We shall see.

Thank you all for your input. I certainly do appreciate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 10:22pm
Jim,
I can't see how a strike on a punch in that area could do anything as far as helping tighten a receiver to barrel. Would be different if the threads were left hand. But can't underestimate Bubba !

Gotta take in to account this one needs some major cleaning. The chamber looks really rough, much like the first post showing inside the muzzle.
But if you...  Open this image in a new tab to see it magnified you'll see milling scars on the skirt. Milling marks like you often see on the finished skirts.
But I also believe I'm seeing a crack or split where the skirt looks to be pulled away from the face of the chamber flat.

Can you guys see it ?
Thinking we've done all we can do without having hands on.

To the OP 8Ring,
Any mention of there being a sling, oiler or magazines tucked away for it ?

Is it for sale ?





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 10:54pm
It does look cracked.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 12 2020 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Jim,
I can't see how a strike on a punch in that area could do anything as far as helping tighten a receiver to barrel. Would be different if the threads were left hand. But can't underestimate Bubba !

Gotta take in to account this one needs some major cleaning. The chamber looks really rough, much like the first post showing inside the muzzle.
But if you...  Open this image in a new tab to see it magnified you'll see milling scars on the skirt. Milling marks like you often see on the finished skirts.
But I also believe I'm seeing a crack or split where the skirt looks to be pulled away from the face of the chamber flat.
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Can you guys see it ?</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Thinking we've done all we can do without having hands on.</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">To the OP 8Ring,</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Any mention of there being a sling, oiler or magazines tucked away for it ?</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Is it for sale ?</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Charlie-Painter777</span>



Painter777--

Interesting insights inre the skirt. Any chance the rifle suffered an OOB?

I may recommend that they have a good smith look the carbine over, if I can find a competent smith in the Boston area.

The rifle is not currently for sale, and that isn't something I would want in play influencing people's advice currently. That all is beyond my pay grade. I just offered to help get it running again so we could go shooting together--though whether or not that can happen is in dispute. In the meantime, for me, it's a good motivation to learn about the M1 Carbine, and damn fine project for long hours of social isolation during The Plague (lol).

As for accessories, I had asked, but the old-timer couldn't recall if he still had that stuff around or where it might be if he DID have it. I had asked the nephew (who enjoys shooting, and who I am friendly with) to keep an eye peeled, and he will look around likely places in the barn, workshop, etc. It would seem to me that somebody who owns a carbine also owns cleaning supplies, magazines, ammunition--and it would likely all be in the same place, even if the exact location is forgotten--who throws that stuff away? It is probably in a box under a workbench--or in a closet--or at the family's place in Vermont. Keep an eye peeled for a workbench and bottle of Hoppes on a shelf--it probably won't be far from that.

I'll post back if anything turns up.

In the meantime, I have a WTB for headspace gauges and maybe a bolt tool, if anybody has those they'd be willing to let go of. Apart from that I'll just pay long dollar at Pacific Tool and Gauge.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 13 2020 at 7:25am
If it were mine, the skirt wouldn't prevent me from firing it. That area breaking under crush was why they short skirted barrels. The head spacing would prevent me though. Firing with a broken bolt is my first thought but that doesn't mandate it was OOB. It may have just had an OOB event and not a broken bolt. If the bolt was broken and it cycled & fired again what might happen? Did it over-rotate and jam the left lug to there as the right lug fouled up the next cycle? Maybe the bolt jammed and had to be driven out some how.

The problem with smiths is there aren't competent ones familiar with that specific arm anymore. They'll tell you something you don't need. There can't be but a few people in the country left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 13 2020 at 7:33am
Look what I found. This is a 3.3 SG shooter that I recently re-barrelled. The odds of the OP's receiver and this receiver being handled by the same guy are pretty remote...I would think. If you zoom-in you can discover a small punch-mark in the exact same spot as the one in question here at the end of what seems to be a tool-trace. Maybe others can take a close look at their receivers. I would never have noticed this unless I looked for it. It appears to be purposely done to dress the area just below the left lug channel.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 13 2020 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Look what I found. This is a 3.3 SG shooter that I recently re-barrelled. The odds of the OP's receiver and this receiver being handled by the same guy are pretty remote...I would think. If you zoom-in you can discover a small punch-mark in the exact same spot as the one in question here at the end of what seems to be a tool-trace. Maybe others can take a close look at their receivers. I would never have noticed this unless I looked for it. It appears to be purposely done to dress the area just below the left lug channel.







Interesting...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 13 2020 at 6:42pm
With the barrel removed and the receiver placed front down, a hard strike in that location could move the metal forward just a thousandth or two. It would push the front edge of the receiver ring forward (in theory) enough to provide a bit of resistance as the barrel was turned in. I doubt that it would move enough metal to do the job, so the next try would be working on the barrel skirt. That might then result in the skirt damage we are all looking at. I think Bubba tried to tighten the barrel and made a mess of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eight_Ring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 13 2020 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

With the barrel removed and the receiver placed front down, a hard strike in that location could move the metal forward just a thousandth or two. It would push the front edge of the receiver ring forward (in theory) enough to provide a bit of resistance as the barrel was turned in. I doubt that it would move enough metal to do the job, so the next try would be working on the barrel skirt. That might then result in the skirt damage we are all looking at. I think Bubba tried to tighten the barrel and made a mess of it.


Had you ever heard of anyone doing this before? Is it a common technique?

Why would you assume that an original barrel would need to be "Bubba'd" to tighten it up?

And if this is your theory--what do you make of the track of bright metal and (what I perceive to be) galling along the left receiver rail (which matches exactly the track of a damaged bolt lug) leading directly to the peened spot?
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