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Iver Johnson, gunsmith, Maryland

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floydthecat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 8:32am
The ring surely looks like it is being peened right at the spot where the extractor nose would strike it when the bolt slammed home. The proud extractor would exacerbate that. The description of a ruptured case indicates exposure of the case, just like ruptures in unsupported pistol chambers. The carbine fired when it shouldn’t have. The bolt was not fully rotated and locked, was able to retract under rearward thrust of the cartridge when it fired and ruptured due to excessive exposed brass. The questionable built-in receiver bridge/firing pin safety failed. We know that many commercial carbine manufacturers could not get the bridge-cut right. The angle of that cut had even been changed in USGI carbines early on to get it right. One should always test the reliability of that safety system. It can be done safely with a primed case. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 9:51am
I don't think it was out of battery. The rear of the bolt and the hammer wouldn't allow that. It's designed to prevent that from happening. I wasn't firing the rifle at the time, however I was in the next lane firing another rifle. When it happened everyone around noticed. The RO came right over. I'm not sure where the breech was because the ejection threw the cartridge on the ground. However it was half way around the cartridge. The rifle was put away. I don't know if it ended up being a squib. I think the round went down range.

What is clear is that bolt/receiver isn't right. I'd like to send it or with any luck take it to someone near or in Maryland that can look at it and has the ability to fix it, or tell me it's scrap. Someone that works with these rifles should know very quickly I'd think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 10:15am
If the bolt is rotated just far enough, but not completely, it will fire. The match-up of the hammer nose and the rear bolt-face is suppose to help prevent it from firing, but a matter of tolerance among components, the quality of machining by the manufacturer and wear-n-tear come into play. Usually, it will just break a bolt lug. There is a point when the firing pin tang safety and built in bolt safety “release” and allow the hammer to fall on the pin. This can be just before it is fully rotated and locked. 

What the heck, probably never know what happened. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 4:09pm
If the bolt were mine, I'd destroy it- it is toast; it shows signs of being soft and wear in
places it should not.

You could examine the slide- what brand/type is it? Post a picture of the inside cuts on the slide that open
and close the bolt.

You have the parts in the inland to test your own rifle,
exchange the bolt and slide and try the IJ again- I'll bet it works fine. JMHO.
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 4:31pm
And...checking head space on an Iver Johnson is critical to safety. All the ones I have handled or now own left the factory long on head space. Does not necessarily mean it is unsafe to fire, but IJ bolts tend to head space tighter in an IJ carbine than a average GI bolt will. I have/had IJ bolts that will head space 4 to 5 thousandths tighter than the average GI bolt. If you drop a GI bolt into an IJ barreled receiver that is usually much looser than a GI barreled receiver, you could easily get out around 1.310 and into the teens. Some of the commercials claim to be USGI compatible, but they are not, particularly in the area of bolt fitment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2021 at 7:44pm
I have an Iver also and am having a similar problem. When the hammer is down, manual bolt pull is somewhat difficult. The bolt rises significantly which seems to put it in a bind. I can hold downward pressure on the bolt and that seems to help a little. I tried all sorts of things today in an attempt to solve the problem.

 The hammer on the IJ is physically a little different from a military hammer. It also appears to be made of much softer metal and gouges easily.

 

 I thought this might be the problem so I cleaned up the face of the hammer.

  

   The bolt was still difficult to cycle. Just for curiosity I cycled and dry fired the rifle 60 times and checked the hammer again.
 
  

  I think I'll replace the hammer with a U.S. example.

  Next I tried the bolt out of one of my Inland's. Same problem. I tried the hammer out of the Inland. Same problem.

   Next I compared the Inland receiver and the IJ receiver side-by-side. I did notice one thing. First, the the IJ seems somewhat junky. As a side note, when I first got this rifle I discovered it was shooting WAY right, and that the barrel didn't run parallel with the receiver, as though the front of the receiver wasn't square or it was threaded crooked for the barrel. I had to do some serious tweaking to correct this. Anyhow, I noticed this difference in the receivers-

 

 The Inland has a little piece that prevents the bolt from rising before it rotates. 

 Also, after the fact I see the IJ receiver has a somewhat sharp corner where the rear of the firing pin has to cam-
 
 

 Don't know if this has anything to do with it or not.

 Thoughts?
  


  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2021 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by armonica armonica wrote:

Where do you see the crack?

I thought the vertical line to the left on the receiver ring was a crack. But I've now seen that same line on others..... Ouch

Try This: If you have a bolt tool... Have you tried pulling your original extractor and see if the bolt pulls back and forth without the binding on initial pull back?

1 picture makes it appear that when the bolt is wanting to rotate left that the Extractor might be catching that lip at the inner top.

ADD: Another picture makes it look like you may have a bump/raised spot on the bottom frt edge of your bolt. The Ramped part that picks up and runs your next cartridge from the magazine, then closes on the bottom of the chamber........ Could this be causing the bolt to set high when closed. Hard to tell from the picture.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2021 at 11:05pm
I am guessing your Inland is first block or early second block?
(below 3,07x,xxx)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2021 at 11:41pm
That piece of metal is what I had in mind for the IJ. With that I think a lot of my problem would go away. Looks like nobody is up to doing that. I ordered a used in good condition IJ bolt and see if that's better. I'll have to make sure it's greased where that metal would be so it won't wear.

My hammer doesn't look that bad. I have a ding on the right side just like yours though I don't think it's as bad. Your hammer I'm wondering if it was heat treated right. I'd replace it as well and I think you'll be fine.

I'm concerned about your barrel. I'd have a gunsmith look at it. Doesn't sound right. Check the receiver very carefully, with a magnifying glass and lots of light. If they cross threaded it there could be a crack some place.

Out of curiosity how is your gas plug? Mine came right out with my fingers. I didn't know it wasn't supposed to come out. I cleaned it all out and made it much tighter. A GI rifle they use a tool to tighten that plug and I think it's staked. Not supposed to come out like that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 12:33am
Originally posted by armonica armonica wrote:

That piece of metal is what I had in mind for the IJ. With that I think a lot of my problem would go away. Looks like nobody is up to doing that. I ordered a used in good condition IJ bolt and see if that's better. I'll have to make sure it's greased where that metal would be so it won't wear.

My hammer doesn't look that bad. I have a ding on the right side just like yours though I don't think it's as bad. Your hammer I'm wondering if it was heat treated right. I'd replace it as well and I think you'll be fine.

I'm concerned about your barrel. I'd have a gunsmith look at it. Doesn't sound right. Check the receiver very carefully, with a magnifying glass and lots of light. If they cross threaded it there could be a crack some place.

Out of curiosity how is your gas plug? Mine came right out with my fingers. I didn't know it wasn't supposed to come out. I cleaned it all out and made it much tighter. A GI rifle they use a tool to tighten that plug and I think it's staked. Not supposed to come out like that.


  Regarding the barrel, as I said in my post, I believe the receiver was either mis-cast causing the front of it to be out of square, or possibly threaded at an angle. Whichever it was, it caused the barrel to run right of parallel in relation to the receiver. The problem was so bad that I had to adjust the windage full left, then aim at the left side of apiece of 18" steel at 25 yds. just to hit it. Figuring I had nothing to lose, I clamped the receiver in a padded bench vice, slid a piece of square tubing over the barrel, and pulled it to the left. I'd bend a little, reassemble and shoot it, then repeat the process until I had the windage issue corrected. 

 The IJ in question is the one carbine, of all of my carbines, that I use for chronographing handloads, so I've fired many, many rounds through it with no problem, so far at least.

  I haven't paid any attention to the gas plug, but next time I have it disassembled, I'll check the nut to see if it's tight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 12:59am
My Inland? It's a 730,000 range. I think that's a first run?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 6:37am
Do the IJ carbines mentioned here exhibit the same issue when cycling a chambered round? A chambered round assist in aligning the bolt. It is well known that this condition exist in IJ’s. IJ did not employ a barrel skirt, but cast a lug in the left side of the receiver ring to replace the skirts intended purpose, which obviously does not perform as intended. I don’t recall if it was somewhere in the annals of the forum, or a personal exchange with a forum member, but I recall a previous discussion about this very problem. The only way that shooter could get his IJ to cycle was first load a round by hand before installing the loaded magazine. It seems that having a case in the chamber would align the bolt and cycle.

I think what we have is a case of luck-of-the-draw as to whether one has an IJ that functions reliably. I don’t think it is a hammer or bolt issue as much as just a poor design. Moving to a GI hammer is just going to bash and peen the rear bolt face. Changing to a GI bolt may-or-may-not improve things, but can surely stretch the head space.

I happen to have a SS IJ that runs perfectly. I would not consider owning another one though. It would seem to me there are maybe two possible fixes. Build-up the area on the cast-in lug so that it will contact the bolt as intended and align it like a barrel skirt does. Or machine out that lug and install a skirted GI barrel. Either of which could push the cost of the fix beyond the value of the carbine.


Edited by floydthecat - Jan 11 2021 at 8:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 9:08am
My IJ doesn't have that cast lug on the left side. Maybe it broke/fell off? I didn't see it in the Illustrated Parts catalog. I figured since there's a concern about my bolt anyway, go ahead and replace it with another IJ bolt and I found one. So I bought it right away. Who knows when another one will show up.

For the cast lug, I was thinking a piece of sheet metal would do. 10 Ga or something. If nobody had an idea on how to make this repair I was going to run it as it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 9:28am
I don’t think I have described what I call a lug very well. The third picture in the first post does show the extension on the left side of the ring. Maybe lug was the improper term to use. If your carbine is pictured in the first post, what I am talking about is there. Maybe it is worn down or just machined too aggressively to start with. I will try to get a good picture of my chamber. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 9:52am
In the GI version there seems to be a lug. In the IJ version it appears it's just part of the receiver. It also appears to be worn back. Maybe they intended that to act like a bearing. Like an old Babbit bearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 11:15am
Originally posted by armonica armonica wrote:

In the GI version there seems to be a lug. In the IJ version it appears it's just part of the receiver. It also appears to be worn back. Maybe they intended that to act like a bearing. Like an old Babbit bearing.

You got it. Sometimes takes a few tries to communicate. The thing I was calling a lug is the extension of the receiver into the breech on the left side. What you see there that looks like a bushing on the Inland is actually attached to the barrel...the skirt. IJ did not use a barrel skirt, but rather cast that extension into the breech area where a barrel skirt would be in the GI carbine. Why they chose to do it that way is anybody’s guess. Maybe it was cheaper to build barrels without a skirt.

In any event, it seems that the extension is either worn or not properly cast/machined to help align the bolt. 

You were wise to obtain another IJ bolt. I had to purchase a parts lot to find one. Most GI bolts will not head space in an IJ carbine. You can hunt-n-peck thru bolts to find one shootable, but you might need a bucketful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 11:52am
Barrel Skirts on USGI barrels


At Armonica: The firing pin cam or bridge angle was modified to further insure safety. On Inland this took place early in the second block.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 6:35pm
Another thing to check for are burrs on the rear of the bolt in the channel where the hammer face goes when in battery. If the hammer hangs up there it will cause the same kind of resistance you are experiencing. Check out how tight this fit might be.



And this is a well worn USGI bolt and hammer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 6:40pm
The softer commercial cast bolts surely are prone to peening. A GI hammer will beat them unmercifully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2021 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Do the IJ carbines mentioned here exhibit the same issue when cycling a chambered round? A chambered round assist in aligning the bolt. It is well known that this condition exist in IJ’s. IJ did not employ a barrel skirt, but cast a lug in the left side of the receiver ring to replace the skirts intended purpose, which obviously does not perform as intended. I don’t recall if it was somewhere in the annals of the forum, or a personal exchange with a forum member, but I recall a previous discussion about this very problem. The only way that shooter could get his IJ to cycle was first load a round by hand before installing the loaded magazine. It seems that having a case in the chamber would align the bolt and cycle.

 Can't really tell if the issue exists with a chambered round because the hammer must be down for the problem to manifest itself. I chambered a sized case in my IJ, dry fired it and worked the bolt. There was far less resistance, which made me feel better. Guess the chambered round/case does help align the bolt and hold it centered as it rotates.
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