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anyone seen a M1 carbine bolt get shattered |
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painter777 
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Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 2352 |
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 Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 8:09pm |
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Cracked RMC BOLT,
Is a Extractor, Plunger, Plunger spring and Ejector worth the shipping cost? I didn't see a Firing Pin. Remember I cracked a N14 bolt and a couple weeks later at my rifle club was talking to a guy who pulled a Carbine out of his case and I noticed his bolt was also cracked. I had a spare parts kit with me with bolt and bolt tool. Got him up and running. His cracked bolt was also a N14. I still have both cracked ones. I have this in a older post on Milsurps. I remember Floyd replied in it. FWIW CH-P777 |
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floydthecat
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Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 8:31pm |
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Yes I did Charlie and I still don’t want an N14 bolt. I’ve broke others but we seem to see more press about the N14.
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Jond41403
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Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 8:56pm |
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I wonder if they knew about this back in 43-44 after the N14 bolts were let loose in the wild? If they're truly is an issue with them like bad heat treatment or something similar, you would think it would have shown itself during late world war II. I just wonder if records have been destroyed of recalls and things of that nature on that specific bolt.
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GotSnlB28
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Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 955 |
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Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 10:02pm |
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In one of the earlier discussions on a potential N14 defect Dan pointed out there isn't a big enough dataset (or even an accurate one) to draw any conclusion. He's right. At this point I don't see a way for us to assemble one, 82 years have passed and these rifles have been through a lot. Case closed unless we uncover some data from back in the day when these bolts were new.
Now IF I were in need of a shooter bolt, there are enough bolts out there with not much difference in cost I would probably pick another one just the same as I avoid staying in a 13th floor hotel room or buying a car with 666 in the VIN (that did happen to me btw). |
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W5USMC
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Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 3640 |
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Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 10:17pm |
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A couple of years ago I attempted to collect info about broken bolts from 3 different forums, I did not receive as much input as I would have liked, but I did get enough responses to realize that there was not necessarily a trend with N14 bolts breaking at a higher rate than bolts from the other manufacturers.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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sleeplessnashadow
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Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1253 |
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Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 11:55pm |
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My prior post showing my N14 bolt that broke, I wish I had taken pics of the inside of the left receiver channel the left lug had moved back and forth in, showing the metal deformation that had been impeding the movement of the left bolt lug. Thereby causing extra stress on the right bolt lug as the recoil spring and slide pushed it forward.
Anyone who has the right bolt lug crack or break off, N14 or otherwise, please closely check the receiver channel the left lug moves in for anything that may impede the movement of the left bolt lug and let us know what you find. Also check the cam cut inside the slide for anything out of the ordinary. Obviously, the number of N14 bolts this has happened with makes them a concern and rationally deters some folks from buying or using them. Good idea to keep an eye on all N14 bolts, but focusing on them alone tends to have people report only those. The question is, why did it happen? Maybe it is something with the N14 bolts, but maybe not. I'm not ruling it out, just suggesting we take a closer look at other possibilities and not just with N14 bolts. As mentioned above, over the past 80+ years some of these carbines have been to hell and back in two, three, or more wars. Sometimes in Third World nations. While it may sound far-fetched, the N14 bolts having been made during a certain time period, a bunch of the carbines they were in may have shipped overseas together. Where they experienced extremes most other carbines haven't. May not have impacted the bolt itself versus the outside or inside of the left side of a receiver. Something that can't be seen or not usually looked for. Maybe not, but. Let's try to take a closer look at the possibilities and not just with the N14 bolts. Jim |
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Construction builds. One person's mind and efforts can build, but not like that of two or more.
Destruction destroys. One person's mind and efforts can destroy, but not like that of two or more. |
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Marty Black
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Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100542 |
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Posted: Jan 28 2025 at 12:40am |
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Logically, the most likely cause for broken bolts is manufacturing or heat-treating errors, but there is evidence that overloaded ammunition also created headaches for the carbine manufacturers.
CC NL 155, page 9, contains excerpts from (General Manager of Saginaw Steering Gear Division of G.M.) William H. Doerfner's "Engineer's Log Book" hand-written entries during late September 1943. ----------------------------------- Sept 21 - Carbines held up today due to faulty or overloaded ammunition which breaks bolt in gun in less than 6000 rounds. Runchey - bolts. (Charles Runchey, SG's Manager of the S'G' plant) Having trouble getting guns passed due to overloaded ammunition. In order to make work, we must reduce orifice from 85-90 Dia to just over 42. Sept 23 - '43 Found out from Col. S.G. Green (Lt. Col. Sam G. Green, Officer in Charge of the Technical Section, Small Arms Branch, Ordnance Dep't) ammunition was purposely overloaded to make guns carry up farther in the field. Guns built to present specifications will not stand overload. All fail in bolt. Other builders are having same trouble. Ammunition 30,000# start 36,000# 38,000# 46,000# has been raised Col DeGuire, Ass't Chief of Ordnance here on Carbine bolt. Most of the industry are breaking bolts with new ammunition loaded to 42000#/ sq " We have some changes which we feel will make a satisfactory bolt. 1. Shot blast critical surfaces. 2. Grind 5 degree angle on lug. 3. Change to 4600 series steel (Ni) for shock. Mr. Stanley - Standard Products - Port Clinton. Wants 8000-10000 bolts. After we received new lot of ammunition, we have not broken another bolt. We sure were in a sweat trying to make a good bolt good enough to withstand up to 100% increase in pressure. Sep 29-43 Send Posner (Charles Posner, Metallurgist Foreman of SG Gun Plant) to Detroit with bolts for stress relieving. ------------------------------------- Regards, mb Edited by Marty Black - Jan 28 2025 at 1:10am |
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Marty Black
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sleeplessnashadow
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Posted: Jan 28 2025 at 1:57am |
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Thanks for that, Marty.
Hardness problems have been a constant with commercial bolts. Experienced this during my testing of all the various commercial carbines for the commercial carbine web pages. Usually if this is the problem there is other evidence besides the right lug snapping off. Either on the rear of the bolt if too soft, or face of the hammer if the bolt is too hard. But, these were commercial carbines. Obviously, proper hardness seems to have been very consistent with the GI parts. Or they wouldn't have lasted as long as they have. Always possible someone erred with a batch of NPM bolts. But from what everyone has experience it would have been very rare. Simple solution to examine this issue would be to have some of these cracked bolts hardness tested. Jim |
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Construction builds. One person's mind and efforts can build, but not like that of two or more.
Destruction destroys. One person's mind and efforts can destroy, but not like that of two or more. |
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W5USMC
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Posted: Jan 28 2025 at 12:36pm |
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A few links to past discussions on broken bolts from various forums.
Edited by W5USMC - Apr 23 2025 at 12:09pm |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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M1CarbineMAN
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Joined: Oct 22 2023 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 88 |
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Posted: Jan 30 2025 at 5:02am |
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yup just bad batches of steel .
It took them a realy long time to get the Garands bolts to not explode and shatter
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GotSnlB28
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Posted: Mar 01 2025 at 7:50pm |
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Here's another cracked Rock-ola round bolt that's up for sale on fleabay. For avoidance of doubt, it's a different bolt than the one Wayne posted. Both are available if anyone wants to start building a collection!
 
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GotSnlB28
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Posted: Mar 02 2025 at 7:39am |
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On the Rock-ola I posted someone may have filed the back of the left lug as there is an appearance of a burr and the edges don't look quite right.
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painter777
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Posted: Mar 02 2025 at 4:31pm |
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A NPM that I cracked a N14 bolt on is pictured below. Shows the usual fit between the bolt and left locking shoulder, you'll see a bit of finish wear on the bolt up where the final rotation would be.
  After some study of the picture below the Vertical lines stood out behind the bolts left lug which led me to inspect the Receivers Left Locking Lug. I had already looked and felt for burs inside the rails on both sides and had found none.  I didn't get a picture of the NPM receiver but I have this picture of a early WRA to show the bottom view of the Left Locking Shoulder. On the Face side it has a inside concave shape for the bolt's body to rotate in. On the Left Shoulder the bottom right corner has a Bevel like Miter cut to funnel the bolt lug in to. I found on my NPM no burrs, But the face side with the concave surface was really rough. This was the area that was causing the scarring on the bolt body behind it's Left lug. And I believe it Bit one time long enough to Crack that Right Bolt Lug. I used a Dremel and polish wheel to smooth it out. I've always greased the inside rails BUT never recall greasing the top face of the Locking Shoulder or behind the bolt left lug. BEFORE polishing and greasing I tried my replacement bolt with chalk on it and could see and feel resistance. After polish, major improvement and better yet after proper greasing. I broke that 1st bolt back in 2013 replaced it with a proper fit N14 that I still use as a regular shooter. Remember this is the WRA picture just for detail.  Ch-P777
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jackp1028
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Posted: Mar 07 2025 at 4:45pm |
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Charlie, this bolt must be very hard! Proof punch barely made a mark. Might be why it broke.
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JackP
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painter777
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Posted: Mar 07 2025 at 8:10pm |
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The N14 pictured on page 1 here by Sleepless is pretty small too.
In hand I can see this one with my cheaters on. I looked at a lot of GI Bolts today on Ebay. And from looking today, IMO those made for NPM had the smallest Punch mark, many looking like the size of the Rockwell Prick marks on top of their right lugs. 2nd smallest Punch marks looked to be those on Stan Pro Bolts.
Ch-P777 |
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MilsurpsUSGI
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Posted: Apr 22 2025 at 2:06pm |
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Painter777,
Here's another picture of the replacement N14 bolt I sent you. Compared to your picture above, it has similar vertical "manufacturing" marks behind the left lug. That bolt is from a 5.41M Inland that had signs of being used with a grenade launcher. The thread about it (less pictures) is still on the Milsurps forum. This bolt is possibly one of the spare or additional bolts you mentioned being made by NPM. After finding more pictures lately, I see that Inland's receiver left side bolt lug channel has a shiny spot at the very front. I've seen posts about that somewhere in the past. Can you point me to that thread? Thanks, Bob  
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painter777
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Posted: Apr 22 2025 at 4:34pm |
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Bob,
Was the post on Milsurp or here? Any idea or clue what the Topic was? Think that wear on the front edge of the bolt might be from bumping the barrel skirt? Ch-p777
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MilsurpsUSGI
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Posted: Apr 23 2025 at 2:13am |
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I think it was on this forum. You had researched and found work that Matteo? had done in the past with bolt production numbers, etc. Not sure about it now 'cause it seems like he was on Milsurps. I've been needing to answer a PM from you now for a couple months - one of these days maybe I'll get that done!
-Bob |
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W5USMC
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Posted: Apr 23 2025 at 12:00pm |
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Bob, are you maybe thinking manteo97
Edited by W5USMC - Apr 23 2025 at 12:15pm |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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MilsurpsUSGI wrote: