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Winchester Bavaria Rural Police M1 Carbine
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rustygun View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jun 01 2021 at 8:16pm
Found a really nice little carbine the other day.  I was so excited, I didn't notice the serial number on the slide or the stock!  It took even longer to see the BAVARIA RURAL POLICE on the receiver.



I believe the bluing on the barrel and receiver is original.





The trigger guard has some weird stampings on the bottom.  Anyone recognize them?
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If the trigger housing is Winchester, there are often numbers or letters stamped in that location. What that is I can't guess, but it isn't unusual for something to be stamped there.
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Well, I finally took the Winchester apart.  I must say in the 36 years I have been messing with these, this is by far the most crisp, untouched carbine I have ever disassembled.  I had to tap out the trigger group pin with a punch and tap the trigger group with a rawhide mallet to separate it from the receiver.  Wow.

Everything I see is Winchester.  I get the feeling this is all original and un-messed with.  Any thoughts?

I wonder, as late in the war as this was, is the bayonet lug original assembly?  I see no sign there was ever an adjustable sight put on.

I love seeing the WP in Oval Definitive Proof on the barrel.  Too bad it is covered by the bayonet lug.


 

 
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If you can’t see the oval PW proof with the type 3 barrel band it’s not original to the carbine.
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Way too early for a type III band. It would be an extreme situation to get one. Is it INTRAC KNOX, TN marked immediately behind the front sight on the bottom of the barrel?
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@ Ten and Kro,
Isn't the Receiver and barrel looking like the Bav Refinish color ?

Nice clean looking Carbine either way. But Chisel Stake mark has finish over it, Punch mark on Receiver appears partly filled with new Park/Blue but hard to tell from pic.

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Yeah, he says it's a Bavarian marked Carbine. Having a bayonet band makes me suspect it's an INTRAC, but that's just a personal thought and not really documented anywhere known to me.
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Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Isn't the Receiver and barrel looking like the Bav Refinish color ?

That was my first thought too, Charlie.
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Wow.  Thanks for the information.  I keep learning so much every time I scroll through the different topics.

So, the Bavarians did reblue the firearm.  The receiver and barrel look so well done I thought it was factory.  It is nice that they didn't over buff or severely sand blast the metal.  

So it was likely the Bavarians then, that did the additional serial numbering on the bolt, stock, slide, and trigger group.  If it had to be done here to meet their specifications...

I must add that what is being done here will give future generations a better idea of the big impact this little rifle had on the world.
 
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I forgot to mention there is no Import marking on the barrel.
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Check both sides of the receiver. You might find the import mark there.
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Originally posted by rustygun rustygun wrote:

I forgot to mention there is no Import marking on the barrel.


Really, it would probably be better if it had an INTRAC marking. At least in my, and possibly some other people's, opinion. Look closely. They're VERY light and right behind the front sight on the bottom.
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@rustygun,
Could this be from a CMP sale ? Was there any paperwork that came with it ?
I've heard but not positive that if sold thru the CMP I believe for a Fee they can look it up to see if it was sold thru them.

In the link below start reading at:
'Bavaria Agency Name Removed, Black Paint or Black Substance (Left of Bolt):
On most of these carbines the agency name has been ground down and obliterated. Some appear to have been done with great care, others have been very sloppy. Some of these were imported by Century Arms in the mid 1970's. Some were imported prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act.
On 01 October 1952 Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) obtained a loan of 500 of Bavaria's U.S. M1 carbines. All of the carbines were marked "Bavaria Rural Police".
It explains in part that Bavaria started selling to European gunbrokers, 2 in Zurich and farther down that some were sold to INTRAC

Note: That Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) in a British Occupation zone wasn't required to add additional markings after they received their Carbines from Bavaria in 1954-55.
About 1/2 way down below the chart:

Possibilities ? A CMP Carbine return, Imported by: INTRAC, Century Arms, or European Importers. Or made it here before Import Stamps were required because of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Importers of the M1 Carbine from Germany Pre 1968 and Post 1968.
This Link will show you the most common markings and locations of them:


See This Rare Example of a: Bavarian Rural Police Lauf  (Lauf-County name marking) About 3/4 down:

About all I've got today,

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Originally posted by rustygun rustygun wrote:

Found a really nice little carbine the other day.  I was so excited, I didn't notice the serial number on the slide or the stock!  It took even longer to see the BAVARIA RURAL POLICE on the receiver.


I must not being seeing the same things you guys are seeing? Why is this a discussion?

https://tenor.com/view/jeff-bridges-what-the-big-lebowski-wat-wut-gif-11758307


Edited by tenOCEE - Jul 05 2021 at 10:45pm
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https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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I'm curious who the importer is........ If it isn't a CMP Return.
Not sure how long or if he'd see a INTRAC stamp ..... 

That's why I linked the page showing the Stamps / Locations.

Cheers,
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Gotcha. Ok.
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Well I made it back home this afternoon.  It was my first chance to look at the Carbine.

Under bright light and with a magnifying glass I looked very carefully under the barrel behind the sight... the whole barrel actually.  The are no import marks I'm afraid.  

No Import marks on the receiver either.




TenOCEE, my apologies.  Here is a copy of the picture I uploaded elsewhere on this site under Bavarian Carbines.  I was surprised because I had this quite a while before I spotted the "BAVARIA RURAL POLICE" on the top of the receiver. 

I do not know the history of the piece. 

Painter777 Thanks for the links, I really enjoyed looking up the history.  It would be fun to come across an M1 Carbine that had the original rear sight removed, base milled down, and other rear sight added.  Something about how those look really catches my eye.

Thank You Smokepole , Painter777, TenOCEE and all for your aid.  It sure would be interesting and informative to find out how that little rifle made it all the way to Aitkin, Minnesota USA!
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Originally posted by rustygun rustygun wrote:

IIt would be fun to come across an M1 Carbine that had the original rear sight removed, base milled down, and other rear sight added.  Something about how those look really catches my eye.

I saw one such Bavarian carbine at a gun show in Post Falls, Idaho a couple weeks ago. I believe the guy (goes by "Carbine John") wanted $1,200, if I remember correctly. Pretty neat little guns.
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" It sure would be interesting and informative to find out how that little rifle made it all the way to Aitkin, Minnesota USA!"

Maybe CMP or via Canada ? Ermm
From information put together by Sherriff Andy Taylor......... I mean The Sleepless One (Jim):
http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html


*There are a number of reasons an import mark may not be present. The most common reason is the mark wasn't required at the time the carbine was imported (1968 & prior). Many countries do not require it, America didn't require it until 1968,

**A number of M1 carbines with markings of the West German police agencies have been found in the U.S.A. without any evidence of an import mark. It has been assumed the import mark was either removed, or, the carbine was brought back secreted in the duffel bag of a returning American G.I. These are still possibilities, but a greater possibility is the carbine was returned to the U.S.A. prior to 1968, possibly by Interarmco/Interarms.

BTW, I Fished Mille Lacs years ago

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Edited by sleeplessnashadow - Dec 21 2023 at 6:38pm
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Or, a direct CMP return from overseas. The 2008/2009 CMP returns from Austria (with many, if not most, having belonged to the Germans prior to going to Austria) did not have import marks.

However, the “Bavarian” rifles that were imported back to the US prior to the 2008/2009 CMP returns (Non-CMP) did have import marks.  Was that the mid to late 90’s.  Would have to go look at Jim’s Bavaria notes.

IF it were a CMP return, you should be able to contact them to find out.

As was already mentioned; however, since that barrel date is obviously not a date that would be original to that receiver, it is possible that the original barrel may have been import marked and swapped out by a prior owner.

Import marks have always been a large detractor to many collectors.  I get the feeling that the negativity of an import mark has diminished slightly over that past several years, but it used to be a huge hit to a rifles collector value, especially if otherwise a very collectible gun.  The Bavarians have kind of become an exception to the import mark negativity because they are pretty darn collectible in their own right with the varying degrees of marking and altered configuration by the Germans and the Austrians. Except for the CMP returns, most other Bavarians have, or had, import marks.  The carbines with import marks that came from other countries are not always very distinguishable from other USGI carbines that never left the states.  Often, the only thing that would clue you in is a FAT stamp on the stock from Italy (and now we have a few other Italian stock marks), Korean painted writing on a stock, or some other foreign stock marking (Israel, Ethiopia, etc).

So, hard to tell.
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