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Winchester 6,508,480

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Rebel92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Bubba-7 Bubba-7 wrote:

Sir, 
Can you point me to that?  I am always willing to learn.  There is always new stuff being found.


In Riesch's Book "US M1 Carbines: Wartime Production" he states that the CC cartouche was ~.60 inches. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 10:29am
It is not what I think, it is what I know.  
I do not want to broadcast how I know on an open forum.  I will say, I have owned more late six and seven million Winchester M1 carbines than most "collectors" have ever seen in their collecting history.  

Now that I pointed out the error in your Ordnance stamp, others will add to my observations.  
I am sorry.  It is not fun telling someone there is something wrong with their carbine.  It is not fun being disappointed either, you still have a great carbine.

Page 120 of Riesch 8 th, calls out the length of the cannon as 0.60".  I personally use the diameter of the outside circle in the belt. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 11:00am
hmm. interesting. IF it is faked, then it has been that way since 1985. I would find that interesting as i always assumed that faking carbine parts was a somewhat new phenomenon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 11:16am
Not at all, they were faking carbine stuff in the '80s for sure. Some fakes can even be narrowed down time frame wise of when they were faked because the humpers were using old outdated information. And as new information comes to light, it exposes The fakes that used outdated information if that makes sense. I wish Bill Rica were still on these forums because he could educate us all thoroughly about fakes and time periods
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 12:31pm
I don't think it was "faked" on purpose.  Re-enactors wanted it to look more real.  To them it was an enhancement.   To them any old stamp will do.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2022 at 1:03pm
Here is is measured, excluding flame, from outside Edges of belt. I am not the best with my cheap caliper




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 9:07am
Sir,  I know you are trying to measure anyway you can, to make the Ordnance Acceptance stamp on your Winchester, a Winchester Ordnance stamp as per some book.
Let me explain it this way, each of the WWII carbine manufacturers had a different Ordnance Acceptance stamp.  An Ordnance inspector applied it when the carbine went from a manufacturer to Ordnance property.  They all are different.  At a casual look, they appear about the same, however there are many differences between the stamps.  The diameter of the belt is one difference.  The shape of the cannons. The style of the cannon lugs. The shape and style of the cannon breach.  The size and shape and/or style of the bomb flame.  These are a few of the differences.
The stamp on your Winchester looks similar to an Inland Ordnance stamp but not right for theirs either. 
At one time I had "Original" carbines from every manufacturer (except IP) and I could go to the wall and compare one of my stamps to a picture.  That made it real easy to spot real or fake stamps.
I have been studying Ordnance stamps for over thirty years.  I believe I only have SP, Inland, Winchester and IBM on the wall now.  
As a side note, there is an error in a real Winchester Ordnance Acceptance stamp that makes them easy to spot because the fakers do not make the same error.  Unbelievable.  
And as a note the Winchester Ordnance Acceptance stamp on a M1 Garand is identical to the Ordnance Acceptance stamp on a M1 Carbine, go figure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 9:09am
I see. Im gonna knock a chunk out of it and put a repair over it LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 9:48am
Before you do, You will want to start collecting pictures of Acceptance stamps.  Then you can start to compare the differences.  You will want to know and understand yourself that the stamp on your carbine is not right.  You don't take the word of "some guy" on the internet.  See twenty-five plus years ago, I thought he same thing as you do today.  I had bought a carbine with a reproduced Ordnance stamp.   I decided that if I was going to stay in this hobby I had to learn to spot real/fake stamps myself.  
I even bought some of the fake stamps that were sold on ebay so I could learn what made them fake.  After getting them I was able to see, that the faker used JC's template to manufacturer his fake stamps.  That made it easy to spot those fakes.  Buy JC's book and that was the stare of my learning.  But soon there were other fake stamps being made by others.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 9:59am
I do not know who or what "JC" is. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

I do not know who or what "JC" is. 


He's referring to a book author.
Looking in section I of the club's booklist, there is a match.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/books.html
Wink

 -  -   -   - -  -  -  -  -  -
So true that reenactors generally have had a different mindset than collectors. 
We see similar approach in the classic and antique automobile world, which for a long time was very much into 'restoring' to the highest level of appearence.  Now we start to see some appreciation more along the historian and curators viewpoint, which is to preserve and document the history.
The carbine collectors here lean much  more toward the preserve and document the history approach.  Perhaps this is because of the keen awareness of how much we don't know.

This was perhaps part of the reason Cameron didn't see the big deal of not sending me the rear sight that came with the carbine.  Even though it was a Midway Italian? return, I wanted to document everything before I made changes.  He, on he other hand, mostly flips stuff to reenactors who in general wouldn't want the 'extra' sight because its not a flip sight.  For them the repro flip sight is more 'correct'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2022 at 10:24am
thank you Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 7:25am
Rebel92
I don't know who would have told you, I was a Winchester guru.  Yes, I have seen a few.  I thought with my newbie name, no one would know me.  Uncle "Big Bubba" has helped me a lot.  You know him, he is a small time chicken farmer in Indiana.
 I may have a late Winchester stock.  I'll have to look in the barn after the chickens leave their roost.  
I don't charge extra for chicken feathers or dropping's.  Just a little stock enhancement, I think.
But I would not want to sell it to you until you "know" your Ordnance stamp in not Winchester.  Taking the word and buying from someone because they say something, is not the way to do it.  You need to know yourself, so you are not taken.  
See I bought fake flip sights, bands, mag catches, safeties, and dogleg hammers,(you name it) off ebay.  When I found out that seller sold fakes, I bought from another seller.  Only to learn his too were fakes, again and again.  Then I got real smart and bought from a California parts seller.  If one does not know, they will continue to be taken, and taken again.  It was easier to keep buying fakes than to learn.
Have you started you picture library of Ordnance stamps yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 8:05am
Roger, you can’t be talking about Riverbank like that!

And yep, you liked to have fooled me with the Bubba name. 

And to answer your question about studying, kind of. I have a pic of all the cartouches, but they aren’t labeled so I don’t really know which is which lol

And perfect. If it has chicken scat on it that just Adds to my interest. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 10:09am
I need to explain, you need close up pictures of individual Ordnance stamps from stocks.  If you refer to a picture of all the Ordnance stamps from a book or on line somewhere, drawn by a third party, they will not be correct.  And may even be the template used by a faker.
There is no "quick" or "easy" way.  You have to do the work.  Or you will just learn from incorrect "artist renderings".  
I believe our web site has pictures of stamps.  Those could be the start for you but they will not be a substitute for you getting pictures yourself and studying them.  Some you will find will be real and some will be fake.



Edited by sleeplessnashadow - Dec 21 2023 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirty30Carbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 10:23am
What I’ve been working on for a few years now is a folder on my phone that’s nothing but parts markings, oddities, ordnance stamps, and what ever else I think I may need. Since I can’t remember what I ate for lunch yesterday, it makes and great reference to check parts out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 11:26am
Great advice gents!

Ethan chose what works for you.  I need to work on paper or on a decent size computer screen.  Sometimes both at the same time.  On the computer, if I want to save a side by side view of illustrations, there's a couple of freeware programs that I use; IRFANView, XnView, and to put them in a document format either an older OpenOffice or LibreOffice.   (I see no reason to pay Microsoft a yearly fee just to use a bloated word processor, nor let google scan my stuff for key words.  That said, both have good products in terms of usability and when needed for work I certainly have used them.) 

Which ever method I choose for viewing, the important part is hunting down and noting the characteristics.  I've not been so interested in the ordnance stamps as other things but the process is the same.  Making the comparisons and notes is help in the learning - at least for me.  Its the same way I learn a route to drive.  I make a sketch of the roads and key interstections bridges etc.  Often I never look at the sketch enroute because the act of making it stuck it in my brain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 2:26pm
Here's a Stamp Quiz put together by one of the best Stock man in the collecting world.
Now these are M1 Garand Stamps, but a good way to train the eye.
Too easy to give you CC vs CC Carbine pics.


HTH,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 2:56pm
This might also help.
Pictured is a 2nd style Underwood stamp.
Look closely because not all the faults are circled.
Real vs a Reproduction stamp made by copying JC's template:






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2022 at 7:10pm
I must be dense. I just cannot see any difference in any of them. I can spot “humped” parts pretty good, but the cartouches I cannot see. I did compare my I cut rockola stock to this one and could see a few differences. And my others are so worn I cannot tell. 
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