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What brand receiver is this really? Early NOI?

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spectrrr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spectrrr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What brand receiver is this really? Early NOI?
    Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 3:18am
After countless hours scouring the net, I come to ya'll with a mystery. Full disclosure, I'm preparing to part with this guy locally, and frankly it bugs me that I cannot represent it accurately! And hopefully I can contribute a pic of something you haven't seen before in return! 

The best guess offered has been that NOI = National Ordinance Inc. 
I'm not very knowledge on metals, but it doesn't look like the other pictures of junky casting I've seen from Nat Ord pics online. And I have never been able to locate an example of an "NOI" stamping...

Theoretically, from 58-60 National Ordinance Inc did not reserialize the rehabbed receivers they were selling. But that seems to be the only possible explanation I can come up with for what appears to not be a cast receiver, but with an NOI serial ? 

Or maybe it really is a cast receiver, from the early run before they used investment casting for the spring hole? 

Trigger group also had zero marks anywhere that I could find, absolutely none. 

Stock only has a stamped R inside of it, and was probably changed out completely whenever the M3 scope rail was added. 


















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 11:01am
Looks like a Winchester receiver to one degree or another, but I could be wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

Looks like a Winchester receiver to one degree or another, but I could be wrong.

I agree with that.

How many grooves of rifling does it have?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by spectrrr spectrrr wrote:

Trigger group also had zero marks anywhere that I could find, absolutely none. 

Did you look closely on the inside bottom of the trigger housing in front of where the hammer sits? Look for a "R"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spectrrr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by carbinekid carbinekid wrote:

Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

Looks like a Winchester receiver to one degree or another, but I could be wrong.

I agree with that.

How many grooves of rifling does it have?

Looks like 2

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spectrrr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by spectrrr spectrrr wrote:

Trigger group also had zero marks anywhere that I could find, absolutely none. 

Did you look closely on the inside bottom of the trigger housing in front of where the hammer sits? Look for a "R"

Doesn't appear to be. Only place I didn't look was disassemble the group and look underneath. 
  









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 2:45pm
TH looks to be cast?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spectrrr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

TH looks to be cast?

Quite possibly. I'm not knowledgeable on that area. But I don't see hardly any machining patterns. Just the pitted surface which I assume to be from the casting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quietus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 3:53pm
A 2-groove barrel?  Seems like some post-war commercial makers were using cut-down M1903A3 barrels.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2023 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by spectrrr spectrrr wrote:

Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

TH looks to be cast?

Quite possibly. I'm not knowledgeable on that area. But I don't see hardly any machining patterns. Just the pitted surface which I assume to be from the casting. 

The mold mark and rounded corners give it away. Not that it’s a bad housing, just might help identify it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2023 at 9:23am
Sorry I couldn't take the time to look in here sooner when Dan told me about this one.

The barrel was constructed by Plainfield Machine during their first couple years of making and machining carbines for Millville Ordnance then as H&S and the birth of the Plainfield Machine carbines.

They were still learning and trying to figure out making barrels during a time when no one made .30 carbine barrels. This barrel was constructed using a cut down 1903 2 groove barrel into the rear half. Other commercial mfg's used this technique but Haaas And Storck at Plainfield Machine only did this during their first couple years 1960-1962 or so. The gas piston housing being inset into the barrel was only done by Plainfield Machine and later Iver Johnson after acquiring Plainfield.

The trigger housing was cast. Plainfield was doing that early on.

The receiver is GI. It appears to have been reformed after having been annealed. After WWII and Korea Ordnance depots were getting insane amounts of Ordnance material returning from the Pacific Theater to Benecia Arsenal and several arsenals on the east coast (i.e. Picatinny Arsenal). Cutting barrels, receivers, etc took too much time. They tossed all metal into a large furnace to anneal it and deform it. Then sold the metal to foundries that had the melting pots to recycle metal.

A number of companies and individuals that sold military surplus started accessing the recyclers as they received the shipments from arsenals. The guys that started National Ordnance being one example. They worked the recyclers receiving scrap from Benecia Arsenal. Another example was Charles Colle, who worked the recyclers receiving scrap from Picatinny Arsenal and began selling commercial carbines as Millville Ordnance. Colle used Haas and Storck at Plainfield Machine (before their carbines made with the same name) to do his machining and construct parts he wasn't able to salvage.

I spoke with Bob Penney (started National Ordnance) numerous times 2007-2017 or so. In 2009 I was contacted by someone who owned carbine with an NOI receiver. The question came up of NOI being national Ordnance so I asked Bob and showed him a pic of the NOI markings.



He said not him or his guys at National Ordnance. They left the original serial numbers and markings. But, the receiver looks like one of the ones annealed by Ordnance that someone reformed then rehardened. I've seen at least one done by Bob's crew and visually it was impossible to tell it had been reshaped.

The pic below is the inside of the NOI receiver. One of the lugs that secures the trigger housing in place was welded back on.

Back to the NOI that started this thread. Possible someone bought the parts separate from the receiver and assembled it. Given Colle's operations it's also possible he reformed this one and assembled it. Why NOI I have no idea. I think it's also possible someone at National Ordnance snuck a few out the back door. But these two NOI's are not the quality I saw on the one done by Penney's crew.

I do think these are reformed scrap receivers. The surplus scrap business is the main reason we still have T3 carbines today. Almost all were either annealed/reformed or cut/welded back together. Obviously some better than others.

Jim


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2023 at 9:27am
Scrap carbines after being purchased at Robins AFB in Georgia in the mid to late 1950's. Not annealed or cut. Sold by the pound.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldboy53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2023 at 4:45pm
Does anybody else want to throw up?Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2023 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Oldboy53 Oldboy53 wrote:

Does anybody else want to throw up?Dead


well, not annealed or cut, which is great compared to the usual destructive measures. That pile looks like a collectors dream to me! Great pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2023 at 7:10pm
Is the cup half full, or, is it half empty? Or, maybe it's a chalice full of history. Something to keep in mind when someone offers to sell you an all correct bring back. If it was brought back from a war, what would you expect it to look like?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote spectrrr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 2:06am
Jim, that is an absolute treasure of information about the rifle that answers questions I've had for many many years. I deeply appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge on the subject! 

I would say from those photos, the cup is 3/4 of the way full, plenty of character in those pieces! 
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