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"Welded" receivers - Beware ! |
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Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
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Posted: Jan 06 2017 at 8:51pm |
Hi all,
I thought that "welded" receivers had all been flushed out by now, but a new collector recently purchased one without noticing. Beginning collectors need to be aware of these damnable things. Quick background: In the early days of military rifle collecting, "welded" receivers were the scourge of Garand collecting. At that time, there was no CMP, only the DCM which sold qualified individuals ONE Garand rifle per lifetime, and you had to wait up to a year to receive it! Collector demand obviously exceeded one rifle per collector per lifetime, so a market was created for creative fakers... At that time, the Army was destroying surplus rifles by a variety of methods, including cutting the receiver in half at about the midpoint of the bolt. The rifle was then sold as steel scrap. Unscrupulous surplus dealers bought this scrap, took the two halves of a receiver and welded them back together again. Then file the welds as smooth as possible, heat-treat (or not), and then refinish the receiver. Of course, some of these welded receivers were a bit short, maybe a bit long, maybe twisted a bit. Put on another barrel, put it in a stock, and hope an unsuspecting purchaser doesn't notice. When carbines became collectable, with demand far exceeding the supply, we started to see "welded" carbines. My 2nd carbine, purchased at a Texas pawn shop in 1974, was a "welded" Underwood. I didn't notice until I took it to a gun range. The weld at the right rail failed, the receiver twisted, and the bolt came to a sudden stop. Thankfully, I had only spent $150 on that carbine. Always carefully examine any reparkerized carbine receiver. Look for bulges, weld marks, filing marks, and if the receiver has been heat-treated, the parkerizing will show where the welding took place - the parkerizing will be discolored. The best place to look is on the right rail, especially in the milled groove where the slide rides. Be careful out there! Marty Black |
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Marty Black
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eestes
Recruit Joined: Jan 03 2017 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 27 |
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Thanks for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone a lot of grief.
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manteo97
On Point Joined: Jan 15 2016 Location: Victoria, B.C. Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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M1 carbine receivers are made from 4140 Cr-Mo steel. In theory, this type of steel is quite weldable, using TIG, by somebody who is an experienced welder. Certain precautions have to be taken, namely 4140 should be preheated to 500 F before welding, and allowed to be slow cooled after welding.
Yes, in theory only. The original receiver was heat treated to a Rc 38-45. The problem is, pre-heating, and welding (which creates heat affected zones, HAZ, either side of the filler metal) will not only soften localized areas of the receiver, it can change the chemistry of the HAZ to the point of degrading the physical properties. If the weld is good, the next point for failure is the HAZ. In the photos shown, welds are in the area of the receiver that has the highest amount of stress during firing. So what appears to look like a good solid weld, might not be. So, conclusion is that the only thing a welded de-milled receiver is good for, is a de-activated display M1 carbine. Repair welds on a receiver, such as a broken dovetail slot, broken trigger housing claws, or a broken trigger housing pin tang, would be an acceptable weld repair, as these areas of the receiver undergo far less stress during repeated firing operations. However, care should be taken to contain the region that is to be preheated to the smallest area possible. Ted |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Welded receivers will likely never be "flushed out," so to speak. I suspect that some may have been laying dormant based on buyer disappointment, but higher prices with greater demand will ensure they continue to reappear. Back in the day, "rewelds" were fairly commonly known and avoided. It seems like I have not heard too much about Carbine and Garand rewelds recently, which probably means that newer collectors may have never heard of them.
In the Thompson world, we deal with a couple different variations, which we refer to as "rewelds," and "rewats." Rewelds are the same as what we're looking at here with the Carbine, and are certainly less desirable, though also less likely to fail, because the receiver is not under as much stress in such a small area as with the Carbine. A rewat (of a dewat) involves a Thompson, or other machine gun that was made transferable under the NFA, but inoperable, to avoid the $200 tax. This was very common from the 1950's to the early 1970's. Many were NFA registered for free, and can today be "re-watted" into functional machine guns with the $200 tax. These were usually lightly tack welded with an obstruction at the barrel to the receiver. Many have been re-watted, with some as easily as using a hammer to knock out the plug, and then dressing the light weld with a Dremel tool. I have never encountered a dewat M2 Carbine, though I'm pretty certain they exist. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Thanks Marty. Another great lesson. Still remember the lesson on how to spot corrected crater stake marks. Very helpful for the collector and things that are usually visible when inspecting a carbine without taking it apart.
Some other valuable tools are a loop (preferably with a light), a gun light, a pair of calipers, a CMP gauge and a small block of wood. The small block of wood comes in handy if granted permiision to take the carbine down (yes it does happen...the worst answer you can get is no). Use the block of wood to push in the band spring tip to take off the barrel band. An inspection kit....Never leave home on your way to inspect a carbine without it. |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Here are the 2 tools I use for gun show inspections, and can be ordered on Amazon for a total of about $25:
Here are descriptions you can use to shop for them: Carson 5x MiniBrite LED Lighted Slide-Out Aspheric Magnifier with Protective Sleeve (PO-55, PO-55MU) Streamlight 66118 Stylus Pro LED Pen Light with Holster, Black These are both small and lightweight, and you'll be glad you have them with you. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Collectors can also upgrade at the the same price point to something more flexible like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Real-Avid-Magnetic-Light-Silver/dp/B004CZLD8C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1484187795&sr=8-2&keywords=Bore+light https://www.amazon.com/DBPOWER-Illuminated-Jewelers-Magnifier-Magnifying/dp/B00K0BGNNC/ref=sr_1_1?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1484187407&sr=1-1&keywords=Loop |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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My only personal experience with a welded receiver was with an Underwood that I picked up about three years ago at a local show. There's was no way to tell without taking the whole carbine apart, but there was a small weld repair on the left hand side near along the bolt track. The repair was done well enough that the bolt didn't touch the weld, except to the smallest degree possible and sometimes not at all. Of course that means I fired it, but that was before I knew about the repair! I ended up selling the thing on Gunbroker as a parts gun only, live and learn!
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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It's interesting to me that the subject of re-welded M1 Carbine receivers was covered in the first Carbine Club Newsletter on page 3, in the "Notes for Beginners" section. It provides some good advice as to how to spot them. The terms used in the 11/1/1976 newsletter are 're-weld," in reference to the final product and "de-mils" in reference to the torch cut scrap parts that were used to make re-welds.
One item mentioned in the newsletter, which I remember hearing about back in the early 80's, but have never actually encountered in person are re-welded barrels. Has anyone here seen a re-welded barrel? Has anyone actually shot one? I would think they would be extremely unsafe. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
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Good eyes, David! Thanks for pointing this out.
Regards, Marty Black |
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Marty Black
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