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Virginia Beach Oct 15-16 2022

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 9:55am
Interesting, on the left rail-I was thinking it looked oddly formed like it had been potentially scrubbed of a Bavarian agency marking, but maybe it's just a trick of the light as they say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 2:56pm
Guys I will go back in today and take more pics of the trigger Housing and also the receiver left side. 

I still can’t believe I found this one and anything I can do to answer you questions I will be happy to do. Y’all Re the Experts. I know just enough to know I know hardly anything when it come to this. 

Very respectively
Da1Chief
Sandy to my friends
Very respectfully,
Da1Chief
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Da1Chief Da1Chief wrote:

Guys I will go back in today and take more pics of the trigger Housing and also the receiver left side. 

I still can’t believe I found this one and anything I can do to answer you questions I will be happy to do. Y’all Re the Experts. I know just enough to know I know hardly anything when it come to this. 

Very respectively
Da1Chief
Sandy to my friends


You probably know more than you think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2022 at 12:31pm
So what is the consensus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirty30Carbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2022 at 12:40pm
Did a vendor out of Florida named Kurt or Kirk have that IP? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 7:20am
Chief,

Your carbine was listed and sold on Guns International in July 2014. Two of the listing pics are included below along with a datasheet they posted in the listing. I've kept pics I gathered while doing the research.

At that time the trigger housing was LGKST 5124. Someone has since attempted to remove the T. It had the markings of the Bavaria Rural Police on top of the left side of the receiver. Your receiver pics caught my eye as the receiver appeared to have been altered in that area.

All of the LGKST (Landes Gendarmerie Steirmark) carbines were among the Austrian returns CMP received from the Army. There were two shipments. The first in late 2008, the second about 2013. I was at CMP for the first two weeks the Austrian returns were inspected by CMP armorers in February 2009.

All Irwin-Pedersen carbines were separated out and sent to the CMP auctions. Not sold for a fixed price. Normally CMP armorers didn't swap parts between carbines to make them "correct". The exception were sometimes rare ones that went to auction.

Your stock was on your carbine when listed on Guns International. The 0498 and 3357 in the slingwell indicate the stock was not on the carbine when it was used by Austria or Bavaria. Otherwise it would have the last 4 digits 1130. CMP had one carbine with the 0498, 2980498. They also had one carbine with the 3357, 4563357. Neither was an IP. I do not have the s/n's of the ones that went to auction.

Because your carbine was used by the Bavaria Rural Police it should have the last 4 digits of the s/n on the rear of the trigger housing, top of the bolt, and on the outside of the slide arm.

The absence of the s/n on the parts indicated above, or the wrong numbers, indicates to me it was reconstructed into an "all correct" IP by CMP.

This may not be bad news, depending on what you want/like. But I think you should know. Many owners would have tried to reconstructed to all IP parts. Obviously someone removed the Bavaria markings and tried with the Austrian markings.

CMP keeps good records of the guns they sell. If you write them a letter and ask for the CMP certificate that came with the carbine, in the past they normaly have sent one out for free. I don't know what their current policy is but it would be worth having that certificate as it increases the value of your carbine.

Whoever did the datasheet either didn't look close or suffered from "old eyes" afflictions with the stock and maybe the handguard. It also indicates the front sight was marked IP. IP didn't make front sights. Their sights were made by Niedner and marked NIP or just N.

Jim





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 7:32am
Ok, I will attempt to answer a lot of questions in this post.....

First to Dirty30Carbine....  Yes...  His Name is Curtis Ferrell from Indian River Collectibles.  He deals primarily in US Military rifles and pistols, nothing newer than M14s.

Next... Answering the BIG Question...

A member from the forum here contacted me by email with definitive proof concerning the history of my Irwin Petersen find....  Let me say this First and foremost, I am happy he did and thanked him.  I also gave them my full permission to chime in with any additional information or amplification they wished to, as they are MUCH more knowledgeable on the Bavaria Carbines that I.

Here is a brief synopsis of what was passed on to me.

1.  It is now a fact that my Irwin Petersen Was and Is a Bavarian Import. !

2.  I double checked the markings the Trigger Guard, Correct Markings are LGKST, 0124 (with double stamp on the 0) See Picture Below...

3.  The rifle was among the US Army Returns received by CMP back in Late 2008/2013.

4.  It would appear that it was in good enough condition that it was separated out by CMP in FEB 2009 or sometime in 2013.

5.  The Irwin Petersen rifles were separated out for CMP “Auction” at that time.  It would have been sent to the CMP Armorers and made parts correct at that time.

6.  The Stock on my IP is NOT the Original stock that was on it when used in Bavaria. (It is suspected the Armorers at CMP swapped it out to make it “Parts Correct”.

7.  The Current Stock was on the rifle when it went Guns International for auction.

8.  The Bavarian Marking on the Receiver were removed at some point after the auction. (See Pictures Below)

Conclusion:  It is what it is and glad to know the Truth and not have all the questions running through my head.  I am still Happy and Proud to Own It! (How could I not be!)

 

 



 

Very respectfully,

Da1Chief

Sandy to my Friends

 

 

Very respectfully,
Da1Chief
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 7:35am
Jim,  Thanks !!!!

I thought I got up early enough to post this but you beat me by about 5 minutes. ROFLMAO Thumbs UpHandshakeLOL
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Da1Chief
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 8:27am
Look at the rear of the trigger housing for markings.


Front sight, look for markings on the muzzle end.


Being that the carbine originally has an RO barrel it may have had a TR or RP marked sight!

So was the barrel problematic and swapped out, the front sight re-used?
or

Rock-ola sent a small amount of barrels to Irwin Pedersen. The time frame is correct.
Did somebody read the wrong book and swap barrel to make it what they thought is correct?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 9:18am
Just checked Trigger Housing and front of Front Sights.

Negative on any rear Trigger Housing marks

Front Sights do have T R on front

Thanks, I must have looked at front sights 30 times at least. Never thought of looking at the front nose of it for markings

V/r
Sandy 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 9:23am
If it were my purchase I would have felt gut-punched when I learned its history, but it's not mine so that means nothing. It is still an unique carbine, albeit with a scrubbed left receiver rail, a barrel swap and some other parts corrections. It's not for me, but as long as the owner is happy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 9:43am
am I a little disappointed, Yes. 
But then again I have one of the rarest Carbines ever built. A First Block S/N that is virtually all parts correct on top of that !

What is not to be happy about?  Sure I paid more for it than I should have (that’s a downer) but it is still an IP and it’s mine

Huge Smile
V/r
Sandy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 10:31am
So that front sight is probably the one that was on the carbine when sold by the CMP. The question is why was the barrel swapped out, for repair or an attempt to correct.
if an attempt to correct then why not pilfer that RO sight and throw a N sight on it?

What makes the Bavarian returns collectable is that many of these carbines were as they received them. Meaning many were as they left the factory. Some may have had a broken or worn part that was changed out, which could have been done during WW2 as field replacement.

It is possible that the carbine had those parts when the CMP received it. Obviously that stock had been swapped.

I do agree that swapping the barrel and scrubbing the Bavarian marking hurts the collect-ability as a Bavarian, but it is still a IP with IP parts.

So the question is if you paid a corrected IP price or if you paid a as left the factory price?

Think about all of those correct IPs out there, the majority of them have been corrected.
Now you need a even more rare Un-Quality carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 1:16pm
Someone recently paid $5675 before taxes for an IP on GB that has reproduction parts on it.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 1:32pm
I've always considered a small part of the obession with IP a celebration of failure. Of course their modest numbers speak for themselves so they deserve the premium they receive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 2:24pm
You'll frequently see IPs with pitting, which made me wonder why that would be.
We know about the multiple hardening test craters on them. Is pitting related to the metallurgy? Or was it related to where the small group of them were sent and subsequently cared for?

Brian Q made an interesting point of how the IP contract was to be paid and that it wasn't expedient to the production of them, but was perhaps more beneficial to how the manufacturer was to be paid.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 8:43pm
I can't help but think how happy I would have been to own the original CMP auction gun. It was awesome as-is without any "correcting". An IP with an original Rock-ola barrel is on my list. Bavarian would be a bonus. Eek. Not to be a downer on your purchase Chief. It is what it is now, and has a lot of nice parts.
Break out those IBM mags!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 9:00pm
Different people have different preferences as to their carbines.

Some want an "all correct" carbine with what it had when it left the manufacturer. And are willing to either sacrifice or readily accept the loss of whatever history to get what they want.

Others prefer a carbine for its particular history. The returns from Austria that were used by Bavaria prior are somewhat unique in that when they were provided to police agencies in the American Occupation Zone they were in whatever condition they were in when turned in by American troops departing the European Theater. The U.S. military, Bavaria, and Austria only replaced parts that needed to be replaced because they broke or wore out. With the exception of wood and barrels, darn few broke or wore out.

Whatever the owner's preference is, it's their carbine they acquired for whatever their preference was.

So, congrats Chief, you got a carbine you are happy with. It retains bits and pieces of the overall history.

Enjoy ....

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 11:14pm
Jim, I still can’t get over how much you found out about my IP and I will never be able to thank you enough. 

I called what a country and they actually had an original IR-IP Hand Guard that also had the Flaming Bomb. Needless to say I ordered it to replace the RSG (Saganaw) Hand Guard. That means that there will be only 2 items left to make it entirely correct as per War Baby. The Front Sight and the Push Button Safety. (IPN front Sight and IP-A Safety)  I will take my time and locate them.

As the Data Sheet you found stated it was reported to have a Rock-Ola barrel at CMP but had an Underwood when I purchased. As Dan suggested, it was probably done at CMP during the rebuild and they simply left the T R on it because they didn’t have an IPN to put on it.
  
That would be the only things I would change and even if I never find them, it is still perfect in my humble opinion. 

Again I can’t thank you and everyone here for how much y’all have helped me and all the encouraging words everyone has had for me.
I will post the remaining pics I have tomorrow morning

Very respectively
Sandy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 19 2022 at 11:26pm
I wish there was a way to see a list of data sheets the club has on file!
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