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USGI Oilers

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imntxs564 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 3:06pm
I have a Small Collection of Original USGI Oilers that I took a picture of and when I cropped it I noticed something that I never paid attention too. I noticed the different patterns of each Cap. I never knew they were different. Has anyone seen this and can tell me anything about this ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 4:42pm
Actually the diamond patterns are also different. That would be due to the amount of pressure used to knurl the cap.

Are any caps marked?

Possible the straight knurl is a manufacturer other than international silver.

The second on left, is it an inverted pattern?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imntxs564 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 5:56pm
@Dan..Yes..The last one is marked SW inside a Circle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2017 at 10:30pm
Someone in the Carbine Club reported this same thing many years ago, but no study was ever done on the various knurl patterns on the oilers. Of course, the vast majority of WWII oilers were made by International Silver of Meriden, CT, and obviously the machines that made the knurling underwent resharpening and eventual replacement of the cutters.

I actually went to the Meriden, CT Historical Society about 20 years ago, to review the historical production records of IS, hoping to determine exactly when in early 1943 that International Silver changed from marking the oilers with II, IW, IU, IQ, IR, IN, ISP...to the generic IS for the remainder of the war. We know it was done sometime in spring '43, but have never found documentation of the changeover date.

I was especially interested in trying to find the identification for the ISP code. Irwin-Pedersen or Std Products? I have always firmly believed it was for Irwin-Pedersen, but other collectors argued just as vehemently, that it was for Std Pro. Sorry to report that I was unsuccessful in both endeavors. All I found were the blueprints for manufacturing the oilers! (as well as other items that IS made for the war effort, including magazines.)

On the subject of the ISP oiler identification question, the best argument that I have read, was written by Brian Quick and published in Carbine Club Newsletter 347. It details both arguments, but concludes that available evidence points to Irwin-Pedersen as the recipient of the ISP oilers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 8:09am
Didn't even know the ISP question was researched in a NL. Will find and read. I have seen 3 original IP's previously unknown to the club. All three were in the 1.7 S/N range. And they all have ISP oilers. A small sample size but I am with you and Brian on this one. More evidence needed......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 8:46am
The different patterns observed are from coining, which is a common process in manufacturing. Coined edges can be somewhat decorative, but mostly functional, as with these oilers. My guess is that existing coining fixtures/machines were used by the different oiler manufacturers. I don't think the oiler drawings would have prescribed the exact pattern. The photo is a fun comparison.

Coining can enable better grip, and it can serve to avoid injuries, depending upon where it is applied. It's normally used to remove a rough edge. In my manufacturing management days, we had a part that cut a few of our production associates, and we had the drawing for the chassis they were working on revised to call for coined edges. That raised the cost slightly, but the result was that our associates stopped getting hurt, and you could rub your fingers along the formerly sharp edge. It probably helped some end customers, as well, because it involved computer manufacturing, where end user modifications are common.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 11:46am
Thanks, David....Very interesting. As I remember from reviewing those oiler blueprints at Meriden, you are correct in that the exact specs for the "coining" were not prescribed....only that the edge of the cap had that X pattern.   Whatever machine and whatever pattern was available to International Silver...that - I'm sure - was "good enough."

Regards, MB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 12:41pm

Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

The different patterns observed are from coining, which is a common process in manufacturing. Coined edges can be somewhat decorative, but mostly functional, as with these oilers. My guess is that existing coining fixtures/machines were used by the different oiler manufacturers. I don't think the oiler drawings would have prescribed the exact pattern. The photo is a fun comparison.

Coining can enable better grip, and it can serve to avoid injuries, depending upon where it is applied. It's normally used to remove a rough edge. In my manufacturing management days, we had a part that cut a few of our production associates, and we had the drawing for the chassis they were working on revised to call for coined edges. That raised the cost slightly, but the result was that our associates stopped getting hurt, and you could rub your fingers along the formerly sharp edge. It probably helped some end customers, as well, because it involved computer manufacturing, where end user modifications are common.

David Albert

 
Coining is the process of stamping, cast, die, mold etc. Butt plates were coined.
 
the process to make the edge on the oilers is Knurling. Notice I said Knurl above. this procces was used on the oiler caps.
Knurling is the caused by rotating the part in a lathe and the knurl tool could have straight or angled cutter which presses into the part, deforming and raising the metal. the purpose is to make a grip surface, in this case to help unscrew the cap.
the one on far right was done with a straight cutter and the others were done with two opposing diagonal cutters. the diamond pattern can change with several variables.
 
they also make a diamond pattern cutter, and a inverted diamond pattern cutter. These have set up issues.
 look at the second one in on left.
 
This process leaves a rough edge that is usually cleaned up by a quick pass of a cutter or file. The edge could also be smoothed with a roller or former which is a hardened wheel that rolls the edge down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 28 2017 at 5:02pm
I looked at the oilers I have and they all have a diamond pattern with some variances as pointed out above.  Secondly I was wanting to ask a question regarding a SW oiler I have.   Since the subject is oilers I figure I can jump in here.   Riesch's book says SW oilers are stamped on the cap.  As it turns out I have one stamped on the bottom and here's a picture.  It almost looks as if the fonts are a little different but considering the size and manufacturing techniques I can't tell for sure.  Is anybody aware of SW oilers stamped on the bottom?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 28 2017 at 11:29pm
Very interesting, thanks for the post. I've never seen, nor heard of an SW oiler marked on the bottom, but you've got one!

MB

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2017 at 7:21pm
Hey imntxs564,
Any chance the second oiler from the left is an IR? Are any of the oilers for the same mfg but with different knurl patterns on their cap?  Also could you post a pic showing the stamped letters on the bottoms and the one stamped cap in the same order as their respective caps?  I'm wanting to do some caparisons with CCNL 98 and what I've been seeing for sale on the "auction" sites.  Your oilers appear to be a top notch data point.

Thanks for your time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 8:47pm
Does anybody have the drawings or at least the dimensions for the original oiler components?  I would like to have them all but I'm especially looking for the thickness of the caps and to confirm Riesch's book for the tube diameter being 0.44".  

Thanks  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 9:48pm
There is a NOT USGI IR oiler on gunbroker by seller 81mm (Eddy Yuja)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 11:45pm
Hi Sling,

"War Baby!" doesn't have any technical specs on the oiler's size. Your best bet would be to visit the Meriden, CT Historical Society. They have the records of International Silver. I visited there a long time ago, hoping to find contract and marking information on the oilers they made....without luck. But I do remember seeing drawings of both the oilers and the magazines they made. Whether they were actual blueprints or just technical illustrations, or what....I cannot remember, sorry. But that is the only source I know for any oiler specs.

Good luck, Marty Black
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 5:57am
I'll see if I can get in touch with them.  Would all original oilers be made to the same specs?  I may try to mic a couple if I can remember how to use my vernier caliper.  (Just got to get a digital model)

I had seen 81mm listings and made note of the IR and IQ.  That was some good supporting data for my little project on a theory as to the origin of my SW oiler stamped on the bottom.  I'm starting to think it wasn't made during WWII or even in the 20th century.  FYI, there is a SW stamped on the bottom on ebay which appears to be a supporting data point. 

If I come up with something I'll post for comments.

Thanks  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 10:48am
For clarity, 81mm pointed out that it was not USGI! he is long known as a reliable seller of carbine parts. Many sellers would dance around with words or not disclose if a parts was reproduction.

humpers have been making parts for a long time now. There is a infamous maker of reproduction parts in California that has items listed under several names on multiple auction sites.

 
recently there was a seller who has been selling subjective parts and now selling "rare" oilers with patina and "honest" looking wear on parts.
Bottom line at 40 plus bucks for these 3 dollar items it is not a far stretch for someone to sit there and make them appear old.
 
Now consider that in 40 years of collecting carbine data that there have been no reports of SW on the base. All of a sudden 2 pop up on the market. The shame here is that they will become aware of their error and start marking the caps.
 
The seller on Ebay is about 20 minutes away of one said humper of parts.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 10:56am
Sling...I would imagine all oilers were made to the same specs; they certainly should've been. After all, all carbine parts were made to be interchangeable.

I haven't been following the fakes these days, but I can guarantee you that - in the 1970s and early 1980s - before there were any fake carbine parts at all on the market, collectors could find all three of the non-IS oilers...the BK (Blake Mfg, marked on bottom), Stanley Works (marked SW on top), and the Polley Bros. and Verson (marked on bottom, made in about 1958).

I'm unsure about the SW oilers. Collectors assume they are for Winchester, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. International Silver was Winchester's subcontractor for oilers.   I too would like to learn more about SW oilers.

As for BK, Bill Ricca solved that mystery in Newsletter 333. Blake Mfg of Clinton, MA. made approx 1 million oilers between late 1943-late 1944.

Why do we have these oddball oilers, when IS seems to have done an excellent job? Bill Ricca reminds us that the M3 submachine gun (the "Grease Gun") also used the carbine sling and oiler, and so contracts were let to supply that weapon. And as we know, the service life of that weapon in the US military lasted a long, long time....longer than the carbine!

Keep digging! Marty Black
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 11:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 11:38am
This is the knurling tool (type) I used in my shop from time to time as I did some machine work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 2:28pm

Maybe you all have seen this, but after the initial discussions above and in CCNL #98, I realized a few of my oilers don't have a knurl pattern that matches any of these.  What I'm seeing on mine is the knurl is a 4-½, ½-4, or ½-3-½ tooth pattern.  I'm thinking the ½ differences are attributed to the tool alignment.  Some oilers on the auction sites have the ~4 tooth knurl with some appearing to be 3-½, it’s just hard to tell in the provided pictures.   If you get the time check out 81mm's "Not USGI", the bottom stamped SW on ebay, a few others on the auction sites, and a bunch of non-IS oilers with original leather washers from the same supplier in Cal listed on a gun auction site (give them credit, they do not say they are USGI).  By the way along with my bottom stamped SW I have 4 other non-IS oilers of different makes with this 4-½ tooth pattern (...sigh!) and to go with that they all have leather washers (...double sigh!).  One is even in cosmoline which I guess is another attribute to add with the "patina and "honest" looking wear on parts" New2brass stated above.  Another feature on the 4 tooth caps is they look to be a smidge thicker, hence my question regarding the spec'd thickness.  With my genuine Harbor Freight vernier caliper I measured ~0.1” on the non-4 tooth cap and ~0.12” on the 4 tooth cap.  I've included a pic of 6 oilers to see if you can see the difference in thickness.  I had forgot about my Yankee Hill Machine oiler and although not in the pic it mic’d at ~0.1” so in 1972 they were still making them the same for the USGI.  I've also come across a couple potential differences in the stamped letters on a couple oilers but I’m still cogitating on that.  Sorry I got a little long-winded but maybe there's some validity to all this that will help somebody.

 

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