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Type III barrel band w/bayonet lug

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Paul1262 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 2:33pm
I have read that a Winchester carbine produced between Nov 44 and Jan 45 having a type III band would be marked "C". Is it possible that the band could also be marked "SA" and still be correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Paul1262 Paul1262 wrote:

I have read that a Winchester carbine produced between Nov 44 and Jan 45 having a type III band would be marked "C". Is it possible that the band could also be marked "SA" and still be correct?


Yes, but it's not a one hundred percent proven thing, just very close to it given the number of late Winchesters with type three bands other than the Cowles one you mentioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul1262 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 5:19pm
My research indicates type 3 barrel bands were marked as follows:

                  Winchester: C
                  Inland: AI KI SI HI UI

No other WW II contractor made these.

Other WW II markings: AMCO JM SA MMQ C GM Q Diamond with a D in it or unmarked.

If I have a Winchester dated December 1944, could a type III band stamped SA be correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 5:44pm
AMCO, SA, D in a diamond, (Donaldson?) and various Inland marked ones have been seen on later Winchester carbines. What is the first part of your serial? My remembrance is they started using type three barrel bands in February or so of 45.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul1262 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:09pm
First four digits are: 6585
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul1262 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:11pm
Serial number is in the production range of Nov 44 - Jan 45.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:57pm
Paul, If those are the first four digits of the serial then you are safely in the range of the type barrel band, thus a SA barrel band is a strong possibility. Also, you serial is more a May 45 or possible June 45 production date. Has the front sight ever been off or can you tell?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul1262 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 7:26pm
The uscarbinecal30m1.com web site - "M1 Carbine Serial Number Production Chart" offers an approximate date of Nov 44 - Jan 45 for a serial number range of 6449868 - 6629883. There is no sign of the front sight ever being removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Bubba-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 7:28pm
Inland moved the firing proof some time before the type 3 band started showing up.  Winchester did not move the PW until the type 3 bands were on the carbine.  So on most Winchesters the location of the PW will tell you which type band was originally on it.  
Also if it had a type 3 band already on it, there would not be a reason to replace it during a rebuild unless the band was broken.
I know for a fact, in my early years, I removed original SA, JM, D, type 3 barrel bands from 7.2 Winchesters and restored them with either, a W or low C bands.  And I thought I was smart because some book said the was right.  
Everybody on ebay knows that W and low C bands were used by Winchester.  Right.  Ask any seller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2018 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Paul1262 Paul1262 wrote:

The uscarbinecal30m1.com web site - "M1 Carbine Serial Number Production Chart" offers an approximate date of Nov 44 - Jan 45 for a serial number range of 6449868 - 6629883. There is no sign of the front sight ever being removed.


First, if the front sight shows no signs of ever being off then I'd feel pretty strongly that the SA band is original. Second, that site, while having some decent info, is wildly off in their carbine serial range estimates. Your receiver would have not been stamped till late April of 45 and finished into a carbine for most likely weeks later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul1262 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2018 at 10:32am
John, thanks for your observations and comments - much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kar6666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 3:59pm
Years ago a old carbine collector friend of mine told me he thought some late WRAs may be original with the "diamond D" type bands and some also had factory applied rotary safeties. I didn't really agree but I also knew he had handled a lot more carbines than I had so maybe he was right all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 6:07pm
When were the type 3 bands used marked w?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by allend allend wrote:

When were the type 3 bands used marked w?

I believe they were postwar.

There is an article on the Winchester"Box of ten" with various bands and safeties mentioned.
The Winchester 6-7 million block update lists other bands on original carbines.
I wonder how many people removed and replaced with what they thought to be correct to only remove an original.

Think about it, If the Cowels band was the only original then why are there not that many around? Would rebuild take off a good part and put on a replacement if they did not have to?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by allend allend wrote:

When were the type 3 bands used marked w?


Never by Winchester, but have seen them listed as both wartime and postwar replacements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kar6666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 9:09pm
The only W marked bands I ever remember seeing were on two bbls another carbine collector friend of mine had. I don't remember a lot about except they had the same front sight cuts as a IBM bbl. I guess they probably had a P proof on them and were not proofed the same as a WRA bbl. would have been. My friend was sure they were WRA because of the W mark on the band. He hunted for years for a very late receiver to mount them. I remember he found a 6 million + receiver like new and mounted one. He died a few years ago and I remember seeing his son trying to sell that same carbine at a gunshow. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the great looking late WRA was just a parts gun. I don't know if he sold it or not I just said that I couldn't use it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote watchdog49 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 9:34pm
So, I have a Winchester carbine with serial # 6,484,xxx. It appears to have been thru a postwar rebuild, but now I am wondering about the Type 3 barrel band. Looks to me like the carbine was initially outfitted with a type 3 band, because the firing proof is not covered by the type 3 band currently installed. But, I always have assumed the current band is a replacement, because it is marked JM. Now I'm wondering -- could this band be the one original to the rifle, or is it definitely a replacement?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 02 2018 at 9:04pm
Someone could probably search CMP for Brian's posting emphatically saying either the W or low C bands (can't remember which) were a USGI contract, and absolutely post war. Shouldn't be a hard find on that forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 7:20am
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Someone could probably search CMP for Brian's posting emphatically saying either the W or low C bands (can't remember which) were a USGI contract, and absolutely post war. Shouldn't be a hard find on that forum.


I actually read that post the other day, it was about a CMP member swearing that the dimple welded, low C was for sure used by Winchester even though Brian repeatedly shot the guy down. There are some that will believe only what they want to believe in relation to their milsurp weapons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 7:26am
Originally posted by watchdog49 watchdog49 wrote:

So, I have a Winchester carbine with serial # 6,484,xxx. It appears to have been thru a postwar rebuild, but now I am wondering about the Type 3 barrel band. Looks to me like the carbine was initially outfitted with a type 3 band, because the firing proof is not covered by the type 3 band currently installed. But, I always have assumed the current band is a replacement, because it is marked JM. Now I'm wondering -- could this band be the one original to the rifle, or is it definitely a replacement?


Looks like it's been there a very long time, to the point where I think it's possibly original. The barrel markings are for sure where you'd expect to see them on a WRA carbine with a type 3 band.
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