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TRIVIA QUESTION

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Louis Losi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 5:00pm
WWII GERMAN 88 MM FLAK GUN AND U.S. B-17 BOMBER TRIVIA
A U.S. B-17 bomber is flying, over Germany, at an altitude of 30,000 feet and a speed of 300 miles per hour. A German 88 mm Flak gun battery would have to aim how far ahead of the U.S. B-17 bomber to bring it down?





  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 5:54pm
Now…..where did I put my slide-rule?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timothy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 6:05pm
My engineering/physics career immediately thought not enough information given, e.g., where is the battery in relation to the flight path so as to determine the time it takes for a round to get to the POA. Need muzzle velocity for that part of the answer.
Then I realize it’s likely a trick question - looks like the effective ceiling for the ‘88 is 26K feet. The bomber crew likely be worried more about Me109’s than 88 flak at 30K feet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 6:22pm
I would think that for a given set of parameters, they would have a table they could consult to determine the aim point, or hurry up and invent radar-control. But then, Timothy might have the correct answer.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 6:39pm
Roughly 220 feet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 6:43pm
OOPS! Miscalculated.....13,200 feet ....2.5 miles
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Louis Losi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Now…..where did I put my slide-rule?
I agree with you, lucky for me I was able to view War Department 1944 Training Film T.F. 1-3389.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Timothy Timothy wrote:

My engineering/physics career immediately thought not enough information given, e.g., where is the battery in relation to the flight path so as to determine the time it takes for a round to get to the POA. Need muzzle velocity for that part of the answer.
Then I realize it’s likely a trick question - looks like the effective ceiling for the ‘88 is 26K feet. The bomber crew likely be worried more about Me109’s than 88 flak at 30K feet.
German fighter planes were more of  problem than 88 mm Flak guns. Still, the trivia question needs to be answered. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timothy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:23pm
Let me a bit more clear in my thinking- if the effective ceiling of an 88 round is 26k feet, and it’s intended target is flying at 30k feet, it will not hit the bomber no matter where it aimed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

WWII GERMAN 88 MM FLAK GUN AND U.S. B-17 BOMBER TRIVIA
A U.S. B-17 bomber is flying, over Germany, at an altitude of 30,000 feet and a speed of 300 miles per hour. A German 88 mm Flak gun battery would have to aim how far ahead of the U.S. B-17 bomber to bring it down?

Would the fact that this is a fragmentation projectile come into play when considering that 26,000 feet. All they need to do is lay out the shrapnel not place a solid projectile.




  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:33pm
My Father's Squadron destroyed the 88 mm and any Me109s so the B17 flew its mission unscathed!LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

OOPS! Miscalculated.....13,200 feet ....2.5 miles
It is a difficult trivia question but you are as close to the answer of a 2 mile lead as one can get. The German 88 mm Flak projectile at 1,000 feet per second would take 25 to 30 seconds to reach the point where the U.S. B-17 bomber would be. But pilots calculating this knew to change direction before 25 seconds and also change altitude. Changing altitude required resetting the proximity fuzes for the new altitude. This took at least 5 seconds. One third of U.S. B17 bombers were lost during WWII. The Germans could only aim at a point where the U.S. B-17 bomber will be flying in a straight line. WWII U.S. convoy ships, when an enemy submarine is spotted, will travel in circles because the torpedo can only be aimed at a ship traveling in a straight line. Same as U.S. B-17 bombers.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timothy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:


Would the fact that this is a fragmentation projectile come into play when considering that 26,000 feet. All they need to do is lay out the shrapnel not place a solid projectile.


Fair enough Louis, and I’ve also discovered that the late Mods to the 88 flak system did reach higher than 30K ft.

The 88 was also used in a ground assault artillery role, and with a tree-burst mode it was deadly. My great uncle Frances Ferstl was killed in the Ardennes, 16 Dec 1944, quite possibly by an 88 burst.
In Memory.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

My Father's Squadron destroyed the 88 mm and any Me109s so the B17 flew its mission unscathed!
Do you know your father's assignment on the U.S. B-17 bomber? Here is a link to damaged U.S. B-17 bombers that returned to base. Other bombers with similar damage didn't fare as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 9:10pm
 [/QUOTE]

Fair enough Louis, and I’ve also discovered that the late Mods to the 88 flak system did reach higher than 30K ft.

The 88 was also used in a ground assault artillery role, and with a tree-burst mode it was deadly. My great uncle Frances Ferstl was killed in the Ardennes, 16 Dec 1944, quite possibly by an 88 burst.
In Memory.

[/QUOTE]
The German 88 mm wasn't only an anti aircraft gun, the barrel can also be lowered to fire at American ground troops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 9:19pm
Louis, my father was a Fighter Pilot with the 63rd Fighter Squadron, 56th Fighter Group. "Zemke's Wolfpack" That is his P47 in the picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2023 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

My Father's Squadron destroyed the 88 mm and any Me109s so the B17 flew its mission unscathed!
Do you know your father's assignment on the U.S. B-17 bomber? Here is a link to damaged U.S. B-17 bombers that returned to base. Other bombers with similar damage didn't fare as well.
Forgive me, I misunderstood, I thougth you father flew on the U.S. B-17 bomber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2023 at 9:27am
Here is an interesting twist to the question of required lead. We were both correct. Actually I rounded up just a little. It is actually 2.4 miles. So how can we both be correct when I said 2.4 and he said 2 miles. Nobody specified when the shots were fired, early war of late war. There were several versions of the flak 88. The early version had a straight bore while the later version used a tapered bore and fired a sabot round. The early version (which I used) could reach 32000 feet. The late one could reach just over 36000 feet and had a slightly higher velocity. The time to 30000 feet was 30 seconds for the early version and 25 seconds for the later version. 5 seconds difference. A B17 moving at 300 MPH traveled 440 feet per second. In 5 seconds that is 2200 feet or just under .4 miles. SO, the lead for a later flak 88 was 2 miles and the lead for an early model was 2.4 miles. We were both correct, but we were using different models of the flak 88.  Does your head hurt yet? I could really screw with your mind if I included factors like projectile ballistic coefficient, temperature, barometric pressure, ...etc.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2023 at 11:00am
This is a link to a U.S. WWII Flak training film.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SSNPingjockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2023 at 11:03am
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Louis, my father was a Fighter Pilot with the 63rd Fighter Squadron, 56th Fighter Group. "Zemke's Wolfpack" That is his P47 in the picture.

Great photos from all.....and that's pretty dang cool, Wayne!  Wow!

Not to turn this into a Zemke's Wolfpack thread, but as a kid, I was hugely into WWII aviation history and read all of the books on WWII fighter aces, etc.  I knew who Hub Zemke was from about the age of 10.  Many years later, after my grandfather had passed away, I was given a photo album of his with many photos during training in the states and his time in Europe in the 90th Infantry Division.

As I was going through the album, there was a very small picture of him standing next to a P-47.  I was so excited when I saw that the cowling on the plane read "Zemke's Wolfpack - 56th Fighter Group."

I guess after the war in Europe had ended, on September 1, 1945, there was an aircraft exposition with various US aircraft on display under and around the Eiffel Tower and that is where the plane was on display.


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