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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2017 at 10:35pm
Working on getting pics but my dad has a Crosman M1 Carbine BB gun. It's not made of wood (maybe a later version?) as I think the really early ones were made of wood.. I think this is the second version but it does have its original magazine and the barrel has the maker's markings on the side. There isn't a sling cutout but it does have what appears to be a "type 2" band. Looking forward to trying it out if it still works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2017 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by sleeplessnashadow sleeplessnashadow wrote:

David

"Refute" is a bit too adversarial for me. I'd like to see a researcher take this one on in an attempt to find a primary source of evidence as opposed to varying opinions on supportive evidence.

Finding primary evidence is sometimes simple but sometimes appears impossible. It can take a lot of time and commitment. I'm swamped with all the things I'm researching or I'd devote time and effort to this one. So many questions, so little time. We do what we can.

Jim


Jim,

I don't intend any refutation to be adversarial, but I do note your preference for a substitute term. I present my conclusions in the spirit of learning, and to present an alternative to what has been published previously on the subject. I'm looking for someone to perform the same analysis as I did, but who may arrive at a different conclusion.   If they come to the same conclusion, I also welcome their input. I welcome any input specific to the photographic evidence, or any other evidence that could disprove or affirm my conclusion.

Primary evidence, such as company production records and photos, catalogs, industry publications and circulars, and other supportive evidence from the period of manufacture is preferred. However, in this instance, we have photographic evidence that contains compelling evidence from the soldier's uniform that very strongly suggests this toy was made during WWII. Ribbons of the era, and after WWII have distinct patterns, and the photo is clear enough to carefully consider and compare each ribbon to ribbons of the WWII era, and also to eliminate ribbons of other eras. This is the analysis that I performed, and presented here for consideration. Since no one has really presented any contradictory evidence or theories since this was originally posted, I wanted to bring it up for additional review. Maybe someone new to the board who hasn't seen this topic before will add new nuggets to the conversation.

I welcome any further input on the subject.

Thanks!

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 1:10am
they are not the same toys.
 
Your watermark covers detail which may help with mag release area.
 
do you own the photo, if so could you send me a higher resolution scan
 
I agree that something in print would be preferred, but have to skeptical of photo posted as proof of era.
Maybe the soldier was dressed for a post war veterans day parade?
Perhaps his son dressed up in dads uniform for Halloween, a play, or any other reason.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 5:34pm
Regarding the soldier's uniform...Army combat veterans are authorized to permanently wear the patch of the unit they fought with on their right shoulder. The patch we're looking at is on the soldier's left shoulder, and I would think would represent his peace time duty unit...thus probably post WW II. I don't recognize the patch...perhaps the Liberty Bell patch of a recruiter? Just my two cents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 6:41pm
My Dad's M1 Carbine BB Gun.  Working on getting some better pics but here goes.  As mentioned, the stock isn't wood.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 7:22pm
That's a nice Crosman. I did a page on Crosman just because they were a 60's kinda thing.
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_crosman.html

Obviously there are dozens of air rifle/airsoft replicas of the carbines which is one reason I've just stayed with the firearms. Larry has a heck of a collection of the air rifle replicas. I have pics of some of them but not going to stray too far from all the tasks I already have.

Thanks for sharing your dads.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 8:28pm
Thanks Jim and thanks for the link, just noticed the links to the manuals at the bottom of the page.  Fantastic!  Have sent the links to him as the BB gun didn't come with the manual.

My dad mentioned he recently saw an old looking carbine at an auction. He thought was a BB gun, but it turned out to be a toy replica, not a functional BB gun.  It was in poor condition though. Also don't know much about replica toy carbines.

Do you know what is the rarest of the M1 carbine BB gun/replicas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 8:41pm
Sticking to air rifle replicas I think maybe the first and rarest that was commercially produced was the Austrian trainer made in the 1950's by Tyrol. It was used as an M1 Carbine training rifle by the Austrian police, Bundesheer and West German Bundeswehr.



http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_tyrol.html

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2017 at 8:49pm
Holy jumpin, a real flip sight!  Now I want one.  Only two are known to have made it here.  Need to find some contacts in Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 26 2017 at 1:38am
The airgun collectors in Europe also highly value these. I've seen several sell for over 2000 Euros. Another incomplete with damage and missing parts sold for over 500 Euros.

Beeman had trouble getting the one in his collection. Through his business contacts at Erma Werke's distributor back in the 1970's and 1980's he was able to acquire his. I stopped looking for one long ago.

Apparently the pressure system wears out over time and those who own them don't shoot them because of their collector value. Beeman has been at the core of the Bluebook on Airguns for many years. It shows a number of very hard to find air rifles based on the M1 Carbine design. Most have been made in Japan, South Korea or Communist China.

Larry listed the older ones in War Baby II and III. The internet and the airsoft market has heightened a demand for replicas so there are about 6 or 7 currently being made. The quality of the newer ones is in keeping with quantity over quality to keep prices competitive.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 26 2017 at 7:57am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


they are not the same toys.
Your watermark covers detail which may help with mag release area.
do you own the photo, if so could you send me a higher resolution scan
I agree that something in print would be preferred, but have to skeptical of photo posted as proof of era.
Maybe the soldier was dressed for a post war veterans day parade?
Perhaps his son dressed up in dads uniform for Halloween, a play, or any other reason.





Originally posted by BEBIII BEBIII wrote:


Regarding the soldier's uniform...Army combat veterans are authorized to permanently wear the patch of the unit they fought with on their right shoulder. The patch we're looking at is on the soldier's left shoulder, and I would think would represent his peace time duty unit...thus probably post WW II. I don't recognize the patch...perhaps the Liberty Bell patch of a recruiter? Just my two cents. 


Very good input, which I appreciate. I have limited time to post at the moment, but will try to get to it later tonight.

BTW, he does have a patch on his right shoulder, though only a small piece of it is visible.

Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 12:13am
The patch on his left shoulder appears to be that of the 79th Infantry Division. The 79th served during WWII, but not during the Korean Conflict.

My analysis of the patch involved visual searches based on the following criteria:

- A vertical line extends from almost the top middle of the patch, to the bottom middle of the patch

- The bottom half of the patch is void of content, except for the extension of the vertical line

- The top half of the patch has 3 parallel features of sequential, diminishing lengths as they proceed toward the top of the patch, and begin just above the halfway point of the vertical length of the patch

- The patch perimeter is framed by a light colored line

Based on these criteria, there were very few patches that came under consideration, and this is the only patch that matches all the observed visual features of the patch in the photo. The patch in the photo is at an angle, and is also slightly affected by sleeve creases. The photo is grainy, but the patch still has substantial characteristics that I recognized as stated above, prior to performing my search.

If anyone has other opinions of the patch, please provide your input.

Regarding New2brass’ statement that they are not the same toy, I will concede that there appear to be some differences. There are also some distinct similarities. Of course, it’s possible that someone made the toy in the photo in their garage workshop. However, this is where experience with these types of toys, and their manufacturing comes into play.

I have a friend who has done exhaustive research on the Toy “Tommy Guns” made by Maguire Industries (Auto-Ordnance) towards the end of WWII. These are rare items, very similar to the M1 Carbine toy. They are so similar, I have wondered whether it might be possible that Auto-Ordnance made the Carbine toys, also, but I have concluded that they probably did not. My friend has published several articles over the years in our various Thompson newsletters, as he researched the toys more extensively. He came up with so much information that he ended up publishing and marketing an extended length article in magazine form on the subject. His name is Bill Menosky, and he also published a book in 2014 that covers the history of Auto-Ordnance, and its employees and products. Here is a link to the book:

http://www.aocbridgeportetc.com

If I recall correctly, only 7 examples have been found of the Maguire Industries Toy Tommy Gun. The thing about these 7 is that almost every one of them has notable differences in their features, and all are marked with a large sticker on the stock, and were official company products. My point here is that differences should probably be expected among the M1 Carbine toys. I have observed three examples of the M1 Carbine toy, and each has different front sight features, though they all feature the distinctive, oversize magazine.

I have taken a keen interest in the Toy Thompsons for many years now, and other, similar gun toys have piqued my interest, like this M1 Carbine toy. In 2007, I acquired one of the Maguire Industries Toy Tommy Guns, along with a Maguire Industries employee badge from the son of a lady who was employed in the division that manufactured them at the end of WWII. My Maguire Tommy Gun and badge was displayed last year at the NRA Annual Meetings in Louisville, and received recognition from the NRA Gun Collectors Committee in the form of a Certificate (#198) that recognized the history of it, and the employee badge displayed along with it. It was unusual for a toy to receive such a certificate, and over the 60+ year history of presenting such certificates, only 198 had been presented up until that time. I mention all this to let you know that the subject of period gun toys is something that is not just happenstance for me. I acquired the image because I knew it showed an M1 Carbine toy in a period photograph. As mentioned previously, my friend introduced me to his newly acquired M1 Carbine toy just a couple of days after I received the photograph into my collection.

So, I welcome further discussion on the subject. I don’t think these were made by Parris-Dunn. Larry Ruth’s response to the owner of the toy M1 Carbine indicated that word of mouth was relied upon for the coverage of this type of toy in War Baby III.

New2brass,

I will be happy to provide a non-watermarked, high resolution image of the entire photo, if you agree not to distribute it, and keep it only for personal use. I own the image, and would like to choose where it becomes published in the future. It will have to be this weekend, as I’m in Nashville this week. Please send me your regular e-mail address via PM, so that I can forward the image.

Thanks!

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 8:42am
David...You may be right about the 79th Infantry Division patch...good detective work. It's not an exact match, but it's close. It would be interesting to know what patch is on his right shoulder. I can't speak of WW II, but in 1960's, the unit patches we wore were often hand made by local a seamstress, and didn't exactly match the official patch. I still have a couple of my old fatigue jackets with the handmade ones...now if I could only fit into them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 3:06pm
The 79th Infantry Division was deactivated in December 1945 and then reactivated as a reserve division in November 1946. My best guess is that the soldier in question fought with another infantry unit, and then after the war stayed in the reserves and was attached to the 79th. He may very well have taken a reduction in grade at that time, which would explain the Private E2 rank. If so, this would date the photo sometime after November 1946.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 4:43pm
BEBIII,

To support your theory, he should have a WWII Victory Ribbon, which does not appear to be present on his uniform.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

BEBIII,

To support your theory, he should have a WWII Victory Ribbon, which does not appear to be present on his uniform.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


Well...you make a great point. But, there are other mysteries here. If you're correct about the middle ribbon being the "Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon"...that was awarded to service members who served in the Pacific Theater. The 79th Division fought in the ETO. I think it's pretty unlikely that an enlisted soldier would have served in both theaters.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 7:09pm
Jim,

Not sure what has happened, but these BB guns have caught my interest. Maybe it something to fill the time waiting for the next USGI carbine or whatever, but the foreign made ones have peaked my interest. Sounds like they are impossible to find, but now that I know they are out there and what they look like, it will be something else to pay attention to. Appreciate the pages created documenting these toys. I'm guessing they also made toy (non firing M1 Carbine) replicas. Currently in negotiaons with my dad to trade it for some undertermined thing I have. Money hasn't worked so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by BEBIII BEBIII wrote:

Well...you make a great point. But, there are other mysteries here. If you're correct about the middle ribbon being the "Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon"...that was awarded to service members who served in the Pacific Theater. The 79th Division fought in the ETO. I think it's pretty unlikely that an enlisted soldier would have served in both theaters.


BEBIII,

I'm enjoying this conversation. Thank you for your analysis. (I hit the “Thanks” button on your latest comments) You make an excellent point about the theater ribbons. Based on your feedback, I have taken another close look at the ribbons.

In a black and white photo of limited clarity at distance, an Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon looks similar to an American Defense Service Medal. Upon closer examination of the bottom middle ribbon, which appears to be a very light color, its middle area does not seem to have any features, which would be present if it were an Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon. Without middle features, the ribbon appears similar to the American Defense Service Medal, which was awarded for American defense during the period after WWII began in Europe, up until December 7, 1941. I now think that's what it is. I also took a close look at the last ribbon, and believe it is a European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Ribbon. If you look closely, you can tell that the first white, vertical stripe on the left side of the last ribbon is thinner than the white vertical striped features on the right hand side of the ribbon. The middle of the ribbon is covered by the aglet on the soldier’s shoulder braid. The order of the ribbons on the uniform is consistent with the correct order of precedence.

Any additional input is appreciated.

I have another dimension to add to the discussion, once the uniform discussion plays out.

Here are some examples of the ribbons mentioned above:

Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon:



American Defense Service Medal:



European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Ribbon:




Thanks!

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 27 2017 at 10:11pm


BEBIII,

I'm enjoying this conversation. Thank you for your analysis. (I hit the “Thanks” button on your latest comments) You make an excellent point about the theater ribbons. Based on your feedback, I have taken another close look at the ribbons.

In a black and white photo of limited clarity at distance, an Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon looks similar to an American Defense Service Medal. Upon closer examination of the bottom middle ribbon, which appears to be a very light color, its middle area does not seem to have any features, which would be present if it were an Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon. Without middle features, the ribbon appears similar to the American Defense Service Medal, which was awarded for American defense during the period after WWII began in Europe, up until December 7, 1941. I now think that's what it is. I also took a close look at the last ribbon, and believe it is a European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Ribbon. If you look closely, you can tell that the first white, vertical stripe on the left side of the last ribbon is thinner than the white vertical striped features on the right hand side of the ribbon. The middle of the ribbon is covered by the aglet on the soldier’s shoulder braid. The order of the ribbons on the uniform is consistent with the correct order of precedence.

Any additional input is appreciated.

I have another dimension to add to the discussion, once the uniform discussion plays out.

Here are some examples of the ribbons mentioned above:

Asiatic Pacific Campaign Ribbon:



American Defense Service Medal:



European - African - Middle Eastern Campaign Ribbon:




Thanks!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com[/QUOTE]
 
Yes, this has been a fun interesting exercise. You might very well be right on your new analysis of the ribbons, but it's sure not easy to positively identify them. Given the limited information we have, I'm not sure we can take this too much farther. It would be nice to know what patch he's wearing on his right shoulder...it has to be another combat unit. One thing still bothers me a bit...I don't know how common it was for a soldier to serve in two different combat units during the war. I was under the impression that in WW II, you stayed with your unit for the duration. If this photo was taken during the conflict, then here is evidence that a soldier served with two different combat units. Maybe someone else has more knowledge on this subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2017 at 7:18am
Are you certain that other types of patches would not be appropriate on the right sleeve?

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