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First Marine Corps reciept and issue of carbines?

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 27 2022 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by thirtyround thirtyround wrote:

Marines after Guadalcanal moved to Australia for recoup and training : From the 15 February 1943 until 27 March 1943 they continued with the same theme, plus the addition of small unit tactics. Particular emphasis was placed on physical conditioning for all personnel. In April 1943, landing exercises were undertaken by the Fifth Marines and the Seventh Marines in Port Phillip Bay.

As part of the re-equipment, their 1903 Springfields were replaced by the M-1 rifle. During April, May and June 1943, range qualifications were carried out using their new M-1 rifles at Williamstown Rifle Range.
*(My comment - Had to include M1 Carbines, best guess - not stated in references as there was no record, but other info is supporting this possibility)

REFERENCES
-www.ozatwar.com/usmc/1stmarinedivision.htm
-Special Action Report - Cape Gloucester Operation - First Marine Division 1943 1944
-155th Station Hospital Unit History
-Marine Corps Historical Reference Pamphlet - A Brief History of the 11th Marines
-World War II Gyrene - Dedicated to the U.S. Marine 1941-1945


NPS on-line has a digitized USMC history of the Raiders.   In alignment with your research the author states:
"The 2d Raider Battalion was one of the first Marine units to receive the semiautomatic M1 Garand .30-caliber rifle as standard issue; most units, including the 1st Raiders, started the Guadalcanal campaign with the old bolt-action Springfield M1903."

I looked through, but did not find any specific reference to when they first obtained M1 carbines.
From Makin to Bougainville: Marine Raiders in the Pacific War
 https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/npswapa/extContent/usmc/pcn-190-003130-00/index.htm

There was a short time to recooperate between operations in Sept 1943.  Maybe that's when the Raiders got thair carbines?

Some more images with carbines on this US Navy Bouganville page.
(on the webpage, click on the image to bring up the documentation page and links to higher res/larger scans) 
(National Archives 80-G-56405)



The next one is not US Marines, but shows Australian Coast Watchers equiped or re-equiped with carbines late November '43.  The New Zealand natives are apparently armed with Lee Enfields. 

(National Archives, USMC 69275)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 27 2022 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Marty Black Marty Black wrote:

<snip>
In hindsight, I see that I never asked Bill WHERE those two diversionary raids took place.... You Marine historians can dig out this information, I'm sure.

According to the Marines Corps, Choiseul.

"Two diversionary amphibious landings were made the night of 27-28 October: the 2d Marine Parachute Battalion landed on Choiseul; and New Zealand’s 8th Brigade, together with Navy Seabees (U.S. Naval Construction Battalions), made an unopposed landing on the Treasury Islands on 27 October. " 
credited to JO1 Lorraine Ramsdell, USN

So I think we can state carbines and their ammunition etc, were aquired sufficiently before October
in order for these Paramarines to have recieved and trained with them enough to be combat ready.
However it is likely this was after MCO 189 (July 19, '43) dropped Carbine Qualification for record.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2022 at 8:00pm
I'm not sure when the first U.S. Marine combat usage of the M1 Carbine occurred. However, I looked at my Carbine book and manual reference list, and the first USMC manual I have in my collection that includes the Carbine is dated 1 July 1942. Here is a screenshot of my entry.



David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 11:28pm
Marines after Guadalcanal moved to Australia for recoup and training : From the 15 February 1943 until 27 March 1943 they continued with the same theme, plus the addition of small unit tactics. Particular emphasis was placed on physical conditioning for all personnel. In April 1943, landing exercises were undertaken by the Fifth Marines and the Seventh Marines in Port Phillip Bay.

As part of the re-equipment, their 1903 Springfields were replaced by the M-1 rifle. During April, May and June 1943, range qualifications were carried out using their new M-1 rifles at Williamstown Rifle Range.
*(My comment - Had to include M1 Carbines, best guess - not stated in references as there was no record, but other info is supporting this possibility)

REFERENCES
-www.ozatwar.com/usmc/1stmarinedivision.htm
-Special Action Report - Cape Gloucester Operation - First Marine Division 1943 1944
-155th Station Hospital Unit History
-Marine Corps Historical Reference Pamphlet - A Brief History of the 11th Marines
-World War II Gyrene - Dedicated to the U.S. Marine 1941-1945
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by RedSpecial RedSpecial wrote:

Regarding the book i mentioned, it is for the Marine Corps. Anniversary in 1943. So I imagine that means most of the photos were taken between November 1942 and maybe august 1943 as in that no digital era it took a while to edit and publish such works. I’m trying to upload the book to Imgur but it’s being resistive. 


I think that late 1942 is good estimate for the photos based on the fact it says boots go to New River for rifle training.   Marine Corps Ground Training in WW2 states New River and Camp Elliot were used for rifle training from August through December of 1942.  I can't recall if it says when this was discontinued.

FWIW my dad wrote Parris Island as place for rifle training in his scorebook which begins 6/8/1943.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 11:03pm


Demolition men of the 3d Raider Battalion landed on Torokina Island on 3 November, but found that supporting arms had already killed or driven off all Japanese. Department of Defense Photo (USMC) 63165

M1 Carbines: Guy neeling with balled head and first row standing , man on the right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 10:58pm


Para Marines, New Caladonia 1943, no info on month
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 10:29pm
Neil,


<snip> "Almost halfway down the webpage are some USMC weapons inventories from Guadacanal and there are no carbines on any of them.  The last image in that row is total inventory of the Marine Corp.   There are 3,505 carbines ....  The caption states the inventory is from the end of the 1942 fiscal year."

The end of fiscal year 1942 for the US government was June 30, 1942.  The document's last column is a projection for Dec 1943.  

My guess was that is a June 1943 inventory.  But now that doesn't seem right either.

edit.  This direct link to the image may work
Inventory end of Fiscal year 1942?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Neil,  Thank you!
Can you help us square away that inventory with 3,505 carbines on Steve's website? 
 June 1942 doesn't make sense with what is known about carbine production. 

- Matt

I looked quickly at the website to find what you are referencing so I could inquire but I’m not seeing it. Is that on the carbine page of the USMCweaponry site?
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 9:20pm
Neil,  Thank you!
Can you help us square away that inventory with 3,505 carbines on Steve's website? 
 June 1942 doesn't make sense with what is known about carbine production. 

- Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 8:04pm
So, per Steve Norton who has the documents from the Marines, they acquired (in six month increments):

Second half of 1942: 9,995
First half of 1943: 57,927
Second half of 1943: 83,780
First half of 1944: 107,946
Second half of 1944: 19,112
First half of 1945: 54,990

Total war acquired: 333,760
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 2:56pm
What I wrote, Red Special, is this:

"Prior to the US invasion of Bougainville Island in the Solomons chain, two diversion landings were made to mislead the Japanese as to the real objective. One of these amphibious raids fell to the 2nd Marine Parachute Battalion, commanded by Lt. Colonel Victor H. Krulak. Incidentally, his son is the current Commandant of the Marine Corps (1999). Also, John F. Kennedy was a participant in this battle, as his PT boat was one of two that rescued 87 Marines who had gotten surrounded at the northwest corner of the island.

This raid, limited in scope and duration, involved only 656 Marines and lasted for 7 full days, 28 October through 3 November 1943. It was successful, with light casualties of 9 killed, 15 wounded and 2 missing. The Marines were evacuated by 3 LCIs after the main invasion at Empress Augusta Bay on Bougainville had taken place."

I obtained this report and background information from the late Bill Pierce, former PR Chairman and Historian for the 6th Marine Division. In hindsight, I see that I never asked Bill WHERE those two diversionary raids took place. Given the relative large size of Bougainville, I assumed the landings were made somewhere on the island (especially given JFK's role at the NW corner of Bougainville.). But I really don't know. You Marine historians can dig out this information, I'm sure.

If you can give me your email address or snail mail address, I'll send you the 1 page report on the small arms. I tried to insert it in this post without success.

Good hunting! mb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 2:36pm
The Marine book, I got it uploaded to imgur

-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Thirtyround.  The New Caledonia image is not working linking.  

Red Special.  I really appreciate your reaching out to those with some more familarity on the subject.  I’ll also look for that 1943 anniversery publication.    
I did send a message to the author of https://usmcweaponry.com/wwii-korean-era/%C2%A0 ; but have not heard back yet.   He pretty thoroughly documents the decisions regarding acceptance, standardization, and prioritization of the M1 Rifle for the Corps.   The evidence and conclusions he presents matches yours regarding Marines with M1 Rifles at Guadacanal.    With an serious concern about reliability, non FMF defensive units got Garands first.   This way later improved versions of the rifle would get into the most forward units.  Such distribution also worked well with the  practice of assigning each Marine his rifle as personal equipment (form 782).

My query here came about from looking into the USMC carbine training and qualification records.   I’ll post more later, but it very well may turn out that the carbine qualification per MCO 189 was not implemented.  


Tim (the owner of usmcweaponry) and Steve Norton are close friends of mine. I reached out, Steve thinks he has the documents showing that the Marines got their big shipments at the end of 1942, beginning of 1943. 

Regarding the book i mentioned, it is for the Marine Corps. Anniversary in 1943. So I imagine that means most of the photos were taken between November 1942 and maybe august 1943 as in that no digital era it took a while to edit and publish such works. I’m trying to upload the book to Imgur but it’s being resistive. 
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 2:05pm
Could you recheck that Newsletter date again, By Oct-Nov 43 that action would have had to been the Bouganville operations, which is considered part of the Soloman chain. I have a photo of Marine Raiders taken on Nov 3 1943 with M1 Carbines, JB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 9:56am
Thirtyround.  The New Caledonia image is not working linking.  

Red Special.  I really appreciate your reaching out to those with some more familarity on the subject.  I’ll also look for that 1943 anniversery publication.    
I did send a message to the author of https://usmcweaponry.com/wwii-korean-era/%C2%A0 ; but have not heard back yet.   He pretty thoroughly documents the decisions regarding acceptance, standardization, and prioritization of the M1 Rifle for the Corps.   The evidence and conclusions he presents matches yours regarding Marines with M1 Rifles at Guadacanal.    With an serious concern about reliability, non FMF defensive units got Garands first.   This way later improved versions of the rifle would get into the most forward units.  Such distribution also worked well with the  practice of assigning each Marine his rifle as personal equipment (form 782).

My query here came about from looking into the USMC carbine training and qualification records.   I’ll post more later, but it very well may turn out that the carbine qualification per MCO 189 was not implemented.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RedSpecial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 22 2022 at 7:14am
I have a book from my grandfather who served during World War II in the Marines. It is from the Marine Corps Anniversary in 1943. There are pictures of Marines training, including mortar, artillery and signal crews. In none of the pictures can I find any M1 carbines, this includes the pages on Para-Marines and 
Marine Raiders. On the pages detailing the training it shows the small weapons and the carbine is not mentioned (but the Reising is). I would say that Tarawa (November 20th, 1943) was probably the first large scale issue of them. 

The Marines were not reluctant to issue the M1 rifle to combat troops on Guadalcanal, they just did not have enough of them. They had an insufficient quantity to outfit the infantry regiments so they did not issue them to those Marines. Some Marines did land on Guadalcanal with M1 rifles but they were support troops like anti-aircraft battalions etc.  Like all other weapons platforms, the Marines found themselves the bottom of the barrel. Like for the submachine guns, the Army, then lend-lease, then the Marines found themselves on the totem pole of issue which is why they looked elsewhere and adopted the Reising as substitute standard until they got sufficient Thompsons. 

I’ll reach out to a couple friends who are experts in Marine weapons during World War II to see if they have more conclusive information. 
-Neil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2022 at 12:20pm
Gents,
-Thought I would post,... Para Marines in New Caledonia 1943. Interesting photo as what we see here is the Johnson light machine gun the Raiders / Para Marines really liked and an M1A1 Paratrooper carbine.
-Unfortunately, When in 1943 is currently unknown, I had saved this image with the year date when I discovered it years ago, but I haven't been able to cross reference the image with any official month of the year official archive info. Perhaps someone with much better skills can research. Cheers, JB


https://us-west-1-02860049-view.menlosecurity.com/c/0/i/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudXNtaWxpdGFyaWFmb3J1bS5jb20vZm9ydW1zL3VwbG9hZHMvbW9udGhseV8wNV8yMDE1L3Bvc3QtMTU0MzM2LTAtNDkzNjc4MDAtMTQzMTY1NTE4NS5qcGc~

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2022 at 10:51am
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by Marty Black Marty Black wrote:

You've probably read that the Marines didn't fall in love with the Garand until the Army showed up on Guadalcanal in about Jan-Feb 1943 and realized that the M1 was a much better combat rifle than their '03s. And they started stealing them from the GIs!

Marines don't steal Marty, they acquire. Wink 


As an "Old School" Navy Chief, I prefer...

Redistrubite Government Assets to Maximize There Usage  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 20 2022 at 11:14pm
The term I remember them using was "Com-shaw," i.e. "I comshawed some extra rations. I comshawed a truck."
But I have no idea how that is actually spelled!

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