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First Marine Corps reciept and issue of carbines? |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
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Posted: Nov 27 2022 at 2:04pm |
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NPS on-line has a digitized USMC history of the Raiders. In alignment with your research the author states: "The
2d Raider Battalion was one of the first Marine units to receive the
semiautomatic M1 Garand .30-caliber rifle as standard issue; most units,
including the 1st Raiders, started the Guadalcanal campaign with the old
bolt-action Springfield M1903." I looked through, but did not find any specific reference to when they first obtained M1 carbines. There was a short time to recooperate between operations in Sept 1943. Maybe that's when the Raiders got thair carbines? Some more images with carbines on this US Navy Bouganville page. (on the webpage, click on the image to bring up the documentation page and links to higher res/larger scans) (National Archives 80-G-56405) The next one is not US Marines, but shows Australian Coast Watchers equiped or re-equiped with carbines late November '43. The New Zealand natives are apparently armed with Lee Enfields. (National Archives, USMC 69275) |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
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According to the Marines Corps, Choiseul. "Two diversionary amphibious landings were made the night of 27-28
October: the 2d Marine Parachute Battalion landed on Choiseul; and New
Zealand’s 8th Brigade, together with Navy Seabees (U.S. Naval
Construction Battalions), made an unopposed landing on the Treasury
Islands on 27 October. " credited to JO1 Lorraine Ramsdell, USN So I think we can state carbines and their ammunition etc, were aquired sufficiently before October in order for these Paramarines to have recieved and trained with them enough to be combat ready. However it is likely this was after MCO 189 (July 19, '43) dropped Carbine Qualification for record. |
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David Albert
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I'm not sure when the first U.S. Marine combat usage of the M1 Carbine occurred. However, I looked at my Carbine book and manual reference list, and the first USMC manual I have in my collection that includes the Carbine is dated 1 July 1942. Here is a screenshot of my entry.
David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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Marines after Guadalcanal moved to Australia for recoup and training : From the 15 February 1943 until 27 March 1943 they continued with the same theme, plus the addition of small unit tactics. Particular emphasis was placed on physical conditioning for all personnel. In April 1943, landing exercises were undertaken by the Fifth Marines and the Seventh Marines in Port Phillip Bay.
As part of the re-equipment, their 1903 Springfields were replaced by the M-1 rifle. During April, May and June 1943, range qualifications were carried out using their new M-1 rifles at Williamstown Rifle Range. *(My comment - Had to include M1 Carbines, best guess - not stated in references as there was no record, but other info is supporting this possibility) REFERENCES -www.ozatwar.com/usmc/1stmarinedivision.htm -Special Action Report - Cape Gloucester Operation - First Marine Division 1943 1944 -155th Station Hospital Unit History -Marine Corps Historical Reference Pamphlet - A Brief History of the 11th Marines -World War II Gyrene - Dedicated to the U.S. Marine 1941-1945 |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
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I think that late 1942 is good estimate for the photos based on the fact it says boots go to New River for rifle training. Marine Corps Ground Training in WW2 states New River and Camp Elliot were used for rifle training from August through December of 1942. I can't recall if it says when this was discontinued. FWIW my dad wrote Parris Island as place for rifle training in his scorebook which begins 6/8/1943.
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thirtyround
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Demolition men of the 3d Raider Battalion landed on Torokina Island on 3 November, but found that supporting arms had already killed or driven off all Japanese. Department of Defense Photo (USMC) 63165 M1 Carbines: Guy neeling with balled head and first row standing , man on the right |
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thirtyround
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Para Marines, New Caladonia 1943, no info on month |
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Matt_X
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Neil, It's on the Garand page https://usmcweaponry.com/wwii-korean-era/ <snip> "Almost halfway down the webpage are some USMC weapons inventories from
Guadacanal and there are no carbines on any of them. The last image in
that row is total inventory of the Marine Corp. There are 3,505
carbines .... The
caption states the inventory is from the end of the 1942 fiscal year." The end of fiscal
year 1942 for the US government was June 30, 1942. The document's last column is a projection
for Dec 1943. My guess was that is a June 1943 inventory. But now that doesn't seem right either. edit. This direct link to the image may work Inventory end of Fiscal year 1942?
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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I looked quickly at the website to find what you are referencing so I could inquire but I’m not seeing it. Is that on the carbine page of the USMCweaponry site?
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-Neil
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
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Neil, Thank you! Can you help us square away that inventory with 3,505 carbines on Steve's website? June 1942 doesn't make sense with what is known about carbine production. - Matt
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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So, per Steve Norton who has the documents from the Marines, they acquired (in six month increments):
Second half of 1942: 9,995 First half of 1943: 57,927 Second half of 1943: 83,780 First half of 1944: 107,946 Second half of 1944: 19,112 First half of 1945: 54,990 Total war acquired: 333,760
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-Neil
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Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
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What I wrote, Red Special, is this:
"Prior to the US invasion of Bougainville Island in the Solomons chain, two diversion landings were made to mislead the Japanese as to the real objective. One of these amphibious raids fell to the 2nd Marine Parachute Battalion, commanded by Lt. Colonel Victor H. Krulak. Incidentally, his son is the current Commandant of the Marine Corps (1999). Also, John F. Kennedy was a participant in this battle, as his PT boat was one of two that rescued 87 Marines who had gotten surrounded at the northwest corner of the island. This raid, limited in scope and duration, involved only 656 Marines and lasted for 7 full days, 28 October through 3 November 1943. It was successful, with light casualties of 9 killed, 15 wounded and 2 missing. The Marines were evacuated by 3 LCIs after the main invasion at Empress Augusta Bay on Bougainville had taken place." I obtained this report and background information from the late Bill Pierce, former PR Chairman and Historian for the 6th Marine Division. In hindsight, I see that I never asked Bill WHERE those two diversionary raids took place. Given the relative large size of Bougainville, I assumed the landings were made somewhere on the island (especially given JFK's role at the NW corner of Bougainville.). But I really don't know. You Marine historians can dig out this information, I'm sure. If you can give me your email address or snail mail address, I'll send you the 1 page report on the small arms. I tried to insert it in this post without success. Good hunting! mb |
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Marty Black
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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The Marine book, I got it uploaded to imgur
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-Neil
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Tim (the owner of usmcweaponry) and Steve Norton are close friends of mine. I reached out, Steve thinks he has the documents showing that the Marines got their big shipments at the end of 1942, beginning of 1943. Regarding the book i mentioned, it is for the Marine Corps. Anniversary in 1943. So I imagine that means most of the photos were taken between November 1942 and maybe august 1943 as in that no digital era it took a while to edit and publish such works. I’m trying to upload the book to Imgur but it’s being resistive.
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-Neil
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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Could you recheck that Newsletter date again, By Oct-Nov 43 that action would have had to been the Bouganville operations, which is considered part of the Soloman chain. I have a photo of Marine Raiders taken on Nov 3 1943 with M1 Carbines, JB
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
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Thirtyround. The New Caledonia image is not working linking.
Red Special. I really appreciate your reaching out to those with some more familarity on the subject. I’ll also look for that 1943 anniversery publication. I did send a message to the author of https://usmcweaponry.com/wwii-korean-era/%C2%A0 ; but have not heard back yet. He pretty thoroughly documents the decisions regarding acceptance, standardization, and prioritization of the M1 Rifle for the Corps. The evidence and conclusions he presents matches yours regarding Marines with M1 Rifles at Guadacanal. With an serious concern about reliability, non FMF defensive units got Garands first. This way later improved versions of the rifle would get into the most forward units. Such distribution also worked well with the practice of assigning each Marine his rifle as personal equipment (form 782). My query here came about from looking into the USMC carbine training and qualification records. I’ll post more later, but it very well may turn out that the carbine qualification per MCO 189 was not implemented. |
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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I have a book from my grandfather who served during World War II in the Marines. It is from the Marine Corps Anniversary in 1943. There are pictures of Marines training, including mortar, artillery and signal crews. In none of the pictures can I find any M1 carbines, this includes the pages on Para-Marines and
Marine Raiders. On the pages detailing the training it shows the small weapons and the carbine is not mentioned (but the Reising is). I would say that Tarawa (November 20th, 1943) was probably the first large scale issue of them. The Marines were not reluctant to issue the M1 rifle to combat troops on Guadalcanal, they just did not have enough of them. They had an insufficient quantity to outfit the infantry regiments so they did not issue them to those Marines. Some Marines did land on Guadalcanal with M1 rifles but they were support troops like anti-aircraft battalions etc. Like all other weapons platforms, the Marines found themselves the bottom of the barrel. Like for the submachine guns, the Army, then lend-lease, then the Marines found themselves on the totem pole of issue which is why they looked elsewhere and adopted the Reising as substitute standard until they got sufficient Thompsons. I’ll reach out to a couple friends who are experts in Marine weapons during World War II to see if they have more conclusive information.
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-Neil
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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Gents,
-Thought I would post,... Para Marines in New Caledonia 1943. Interesting photo as what we see here is the Johnson light machine gun the Raiders / Para Marines really liked and an M1A1 Paratrooper carbine. -Unfortunately, When in 1943 is currently unknown, I had saved this image with the year date when I discovered it years ago, but I haven't been able to cross reference the image with any official month of the year official archive info. Perhaps someone with much better skills can research. Cheers, JB https://us-west-1-02860049-view.menlosecurity.com/c/0/i/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudXNtaWxpdGFyaWFmb3J1bS5jb20vZm9ydW1zL3VwbG9hZHMvbW9udGhseV8wNV8yMDE1L3Bvc3QtMTU0MzM2LTAtNDkzNjc4MDAtMTQzMTY1NTE4NS5qcGc~ |
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Da1Chief
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As an "Old School" Navy Chief, I prefer... Redistrubite Government Assets to Maximize There Usage
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Very respectfully,
Da1Chief DPC,RMC,ITC(SW) USN Retired |
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Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
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The term I remember them using was "Com-shaw," i.e. "I comshawed some extra rations. I comshawed a truck."
But I have no idea how that is actually spelled! Marty USN Retired NRA Life Member CRPA Life Member |
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Marty Black
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