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Birch IBM stock, yea or nay |
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skohler 
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 Topic: Birch IBM stock, yea or nayPosted: Apr 27 2022 at 4:25pm |
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Old pic of mine, but is partly relevant to the discussion. Here is an Inland walnut stock below a JLB IBM stock that I believe is cherry. It has the white ring near the grip as Painter pointed out so maybe Birch- but the wood is super soft and sort of a funky grain.
Think Cherry or Birch?  |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 18 2022 at 12:56pm |
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Hello,
The carbine appears correct, matching wear, parts are all correct, good fit. correct finish colors. the serial is 3728701. I have removed the stock and looked it over very carefully and it does not appear to have any patches or repairs.
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4416 |
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Posted: Mar 18 2022 at 9:03am |
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This first link has info about the different markings that Sprague and Carlton used. do read the entire thread. Since that post Sprague and Carlton contracts were found, more below the second link talks about the markings under the buttplate Basically the markings were distinctly different between those sent to Underwood and IBM, but they had the markings under the buttplate. Those markings are believed to be Julian dates or possibly lot numbers for accounting. In 1945, 10 months after Underwood and IBM contracts were cancelled, Sprague & Carlton received a contract directly to the government for replacement stocks. We have not seen any of these stocks with the numbers on the butt. Here is the interesting thing, by late 1943 the stocks were changed to low wood and yours is a highwood. The marking is not consistent with the SC-B stocks we see. Did S&C change the markings when they were making stocks for Underwood? this opens up more questions, Does the carbine appear correct and matching condition? what serial range is the carbine? Is there any flaws or patches on the stock which may have had it sidelined and used later? |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:16pm |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:15pm |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:12pm |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4416 |
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 10:02pm |
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Can you post a picture of the crossed cannon cartouche?
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 5:48pm |
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Nope,
No numbers, nothing stamped into the wood under the buttplate.
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4416 |
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 4:19pm |
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If you take off the buttplate. do you see any numbers stamped into the wood? |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 2:46pm |
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By the way, I've seen discussions about IBM stocks marked only "S&C" before and never got a consensus as to being an authentic stock marking?
My carbine is 3728701, so somewhat early. As far as I can tell, the stock is legit original. has correct IBM type ordinance stamp on right side. I'm not convinced the rear flip sight is original, but the rest of the carbine appears to be. I'm sure it is birch now. But the stock marking? Any updated news on whether or not, Sprague & Carlton had a marking on stocks before the "B" was added? Thank you, |
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Medic314/79
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Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 2:30pm |
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Thank you for this info on the white ring. I have an IBM with a high wall, oval cut stock marked "S&C".
i thought it was birch, but not sure. with this information I can see the white ring around the stock behind the pistol grip. clearly. So, now I know. Very helpful! thank you!
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Da1Chief
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Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 7:28pm |
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PingCMP, Thanks for mentioning both me and “Blondie” in your
original post. I picked up a second IBM Carbine this past weekend at the
Hampton, VA gun show. Like Blondie it is
also an SC B Stock with matching SC B Hand Guard. Didn’t plan it that way, that’s just how it
turned out. I couldn’t pass up the price
at under $1600. One of the things that
took down the price is it was Really Dark and Dirty, to the point that my hands
would feel like they were sticking to the stock. I was forced to completely strip Blondie because someone had
put a shiny varnish on it and stripping was my only option. New2brass told me “Raw Linseed Oil to clean, Raw
Linseed Oil to protect”. So, for the next
3 hours I went at it with the RLO and a Green Scotch Brite pad. I was able to clean it and bring out the
Birch while still keeping the “Patina”, which I lost on Blondie. I am going to name this one “Dagwood” because
Blondie needed a Husband. (Comic Strip Pun Intended). So here is a picture of the Dagwood's Stock after cleaning. Hopefully it may help the discussion. To this old country boy,
“My Humble Opinion” is that it looks like Honest Birch to me. Very respectfully, Da1Chief
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Very respectfully,
Da1Chief DPC,RMC,ITC(SW) USN Retired |
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PingCMP
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Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 2:55pm |
Wow, it took me a minute but I see what you mean now! I almost was going to take & post a pic of the bottom of the pistol grip before I caught on. My stock looks just like yours except it's a JLB. Thanks, I'll include that info on the data sheet I'll soon submit here  Regards, Charlie
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Charlie
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painter777
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Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 12:45pm |
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Birch.
Often times you'll see the White Ring around the pistol grip. This is from getting deep enough in to the blank to expose the lighter (Almost White) Sapwood found in White Birch. Here is a top and side view of a SC B Birch stock that shows the White Ring:   HTH, Charlie-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Matt_X
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Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 9:54am |
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Charlie, Just to be clear, both for you and anyone else reading this - Sanding won't produce a clean surface cut for viewing the cell structure. It has to be cut with a razor sharp edge. Sometimes a saw will get it pretty close, a handplane or chisel often better. But for examination purposes its usually an Xacto or similar blade. - Matt
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PingCMP
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Posted: Mar 08 2022 at 11:45pm |
I'll be hard pressed to sand anywhere to get a positive ID on that stock, hopefully Painter will come across this thread and weigh in. I just noticed an older post where much of this was discussed relative to IBM and he was in the thick of iT. Thanks very much for your input! Regards
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Charlie
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Matt_X
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Posted: Mar 02 2022 at 1:12pm |
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I'm sorry, I can't tell from those photos. It's a pretty coarse cut so would need to find or make a clean spot for a magnified look. We can see that stain drip but I think from what I've read stain was often sprayed. Then dunked in the linseed oil afterwood. Maybe Painter can guess since he's seen a lot of stocks and is familiar with lumber.
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PingCMP
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Posted: Mar 02 2022 at 11:37am |
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Thanks for the useful pix Matt, I'll file for later use. I just took these pix of my IBM's butt, one with flash, one without. What do you think?   |
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Charlie
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Matt_X
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Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 10:17pm |
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You may be able to take a page out of the pro book. I'm thinking it may be worth looking under the buttplate When cleanly machined or cut, the endgrain of those two species shows major difference in how the pores are distributed in the growth ring. A 10 to 15x magnifier will help. Click on this professor's examples of birch and cherry. or this one from which I will post these images, but there's more description on the webpage  Takeaways for Birches: Growth rings don't stand out. The big pores are solitary and spread evenly through the growth ring.  Things to look for on the Cherries. Growth rings should be easier to see. Pores are smaller and bunched up. Strong 'rays'. Getting a clean image like that requires a very clean cut. Pros will dampen the wood and use a sharp xacto or similar. But that may not be neccessary to see when we know its one of these two. Lets add the possibility of Black Walnut.  |
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PingCMP
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Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 9:46pm |
I had thought I'd seen cherry mentioned somewhere in a book, but I'm no expert on wood types. It just looks so much different that any of my other carbine stocks and knowing IBM used wood other than walnut I figured I'd ask. I'll wait a bit before I send in the data sheet, maybe someone else here has something to add. Thanks! |
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Charlie
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painter777 wrote: