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Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests
    Posted: Jun 01 2022 at 12:47pm
Here is an interesting location for the "FAT" marking, on the receiver in front of the rear sight. This picture was posted on the CMP forum by skohler. The carbine is a Standard Products that he purchased at CMP's North store.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 25 2021 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Originally posted by Tahoe303 Tahoe303 wrote:

Well I don't know where my post went regarding your Carbines, sorry. 
Lotta Cosmo, reminds me of a few SKS's I had.

Will be exciting to see whats under neath all that stuff!

Congrats!


Oh, I didn't buy either of them I just nabbed the pics and info in case members were interested.


Aw gee thought you were going to have all that fun of removing the cosmoline! Looks like a putty knife would be a good starter.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 25 2021 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by Tahoe303 Tahoe303 wrote:

Confirmed complete rifle sold by CMP Dec 13, 2007. (Wonder what the prices were then?) Inland #732603 

CMP was selling Service Grade Inlands for $495 in 2007/08.

Thanks, always curious what CMP was selling things for.

Any idea what CMP might have sold a Saginaw S.G. Barreled receiver with correct bbl a MV 1.0
I think the date was 2010.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Tahoe303 Tahoe303 wrote:

Well I don't know where my post went regarding your Carbines, sorry. 
Lotta Cosmo, reminds me of a few SKS's I had.

Will be exciting to see whats under neath all that stuff!

Congrats!


Oh, I didn't buy either of them I just nabbed the pics and info in case members were interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Tahoe303 Tahoe303 wrote:

Confirmed complete rifle sold by CMP Dec 13, 2007. (Wonder what the prices were then?) Inland #732603 

CMP was selling Service Grade Inlands for $495 in 2007/08.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 7:38pm
Well I don't know where my post went regarding your Carbines, sorry. 
Lotta Cosmo, reminds me of a few SKS's I had.

Will be exciting to see whats under neath all that stuff!

Congrats!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 7:34pm
Got the reply from CMP regarding the Inland Carbine with FAT marking:

Was somewhat disappointed in the CMP letter, ALL previous letters have had selling price, any notable parts listed, besides the sale date. Pretty basic info now.

Confirmed complete rifle sold by CMP Dec 13, 2007. (Wonder what the prices were then?)

Inland #732603

With an SG (Saginaw) stamped on the left of the receiver. 
Bbl is an Inland   General Motors Date of 5-43 Muzzle Wear <1.5
Hand guard is early 2 rivet IO Inland and very loose at the nose end.

Stock only has a "FAT 65" rebuild stamp on it and a small "G" stamped in the front of the pistol grip.
Looks like it has the M2 cutout.
Not sure what the finish on the wood is.
The Type 3-barrel band is so tight on the barrel you can hardly slide it forward to release the handguard.

Wrapped around the bottom of the Trigger guard is what looks like an official white ID tape with blue lettering:

"CMP Games, Creedmore Cup Match". 

Don't know if or how the sale date noted coincides with the CMP Games.

Blued Round bolt, all other finish matches and seems like a smooth light gray, all lettering sharp. The only part which has a different deeper dark color is the Type III rear sight and it has bright whitening in the windage lines.

This has an extra-long sling with maybe a 'SIT" stamped on it twice and is held in place by a wooden dowel, which is smaller in diameter than an oiler. I've tried putting an oiler in the slot, then tried both the original sling, a WW 2 USGI sling and an Italian sling and NONE will fit without opening the slot up more. I believe it's an original Italian Stock, no USGI markings, just the "G" on the pistol grip 
I have an IO USGI stock with AA rebuild marks AND an FAT Stamp, the slings all fit through it with oiler in place as they should.
So, debating whether to leave it as is, being originally from CMP assuming they inserted and headspace the bolt. I haven't had time to break things down yet. 
Grind out the sling area to get ANY sling to fit in it or replace the Stock with the USGI Rebuild with FAT stampings of a 1970's date original stock is 1965, I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 4:54pm
I happened to notice a couple of carbines up for sale on Gunbroker a few weeks ago: auction #s 917483620 and 917484306. Seller's description stated they are PW Arms Italian returns that he bought from a dealer who hand selected ~200 like this but there is no picture of the import mark. I did message him and he confirmed the import mark was PW Arms. His story has some bad information too but what I found interesting was the rifles were fully packed in cosmoline. It doesn't look recent, but I suppose if someone had a lot of cosmoline and time.. :) Anyway, I thought it may be of interest to the club if some of these were returned in this condition. I hadn't seen any from this batch reported packed in cosmoline.









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 11:50am
But was that the only transfer of carbines to Italian forces? 
Just doing a little searching the web, this author writes.
"After the summer of 1944, the four Combat Groups of Italian Royal Army that participated in the decisive Allied offensive in Italy, were entirely equipped with British, Canadian and American built guns and vehicles."

Could M1 carbines have been amongst that equipment?  I just don't want to close the  door on possibilities if such possibilites are reasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

If there are late production carbines in the mix, then assuming these are a group, these didn't get into Italian hands until late in the War or post-war.  On the other hand, if there are no late production carbines, then its possible these were wartime assistance. 

Matt, according to records the U.S. transferred carbines to Italy via MAP from 1951-1963.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 10:24am
I'm speculating on the journey of how these initially ended up in Italy.
It seems the odds are in favor of this carbine being with troops in Europe (or resupply to those in North Africa).
In which case it adds to possibility that these were first used and possibly turned in for repairs by units in Sicily and then Italy. 
If there are late production carbines in the mix, then assuming these are a group, these didn't get into Italian hands until late in the War or post-war.  On the otehr hand, if there are no late production carbines, then its possible these were wartime assistance. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 9:49am
Not sure what you are speculating. The mostly correct? The non FAT marked are a mix. Many seem mostly original with the stocks and small parts swapped.

There are several very early carbines that came back to the states that are as delivered for the most part.
Just the same we are seeing some early ones from different locations.

I posted a 7364 that has a heavy roll marking of the numbers, have to look for it.
It is a Bavarian return from the CMP. So that one went to war and wound up in Germany till it was given back to the US Army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 9:30am
Over in the the CMP forum, there is a post stating Inland M1 Carbine S/N: 7429 is a Midway Italian return.  
Such a low number!  What are the odds such an early production carbine stayed stateside in say August or September '42? 
It would be interesting to find the latest production carbine amoungst this batch of returns (the Midway ones without FAT rebuild stamps).
I'm sure you can see what I'm speculating about here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2021 at 1:36pm
Hello  
Been awhile since I've posted anything here but just picked up a couple carbines.

Thought I'd pick the Collectors brains here to see what I might have!

I have read the great Italian Carbine Thread with photos and printed a copy for my files.
I just picked up a couple of M1 Carbines one of which is an Italian reimport the wood and finish look identical to the first photo in this thread.

Inland #732603 with an SG (Saginaw) stamped on the left of the receiver. 
Bbl is an Inland   General Motors Date of 5-43 Muzzle Wear <1.5
Hand guard is early 2 rivet Inland and very loose at the nose end, Stock only has an FAT 65 rebuild stamp on it and a small "G" stamped in the front of the pistol grip. Not sure what the finish on the wood is.
The Type 3 barrel band is so tight you can hardly slide it forward to release the handguard.

Wrapped around the bottom of the Triggerguard is what looks like an official white ID tape with blue lettering:

CMP Games, Creedmore Cup Match.

Round bolt, all finish matches and seems like a smooth light gray, all lettering sharp. The only part which has a different deeper dark color is the Type III rear sight and it has bright whitening in the windage lines.
This is a very nice-looking carbine I have an Italian Sling on the way, reason I went after this one was to me it is a Saginaw variant; I have a Saginaw S'G' - Irwin Petersen ($50 in 1971!), and a Saginaw S.G., which I just picked up also, it came with an odd bayonet which turns out to be the Italian bayonet for Italian M1 Carbines it's in mint condition. The Saginaw S.G. is a rebuild with 2 proof P's and faint rebuild stamp I'm still trying to figure out. The wood on it is all SG marked.

Will have to print and remember how to do a Data sheet when I have time.

Oh yes NO IMPORT markings, I won't buy a USGI firearm with Import markings.

I'm guessing I'll be sending off to CMP for provenance letters soon.

I'm curious if the Saginaw S.G. is from DCM/CMP also. 

The last Inland I lucked into a couple years back for $650 had sold on the CMP Auction in 2008 for $850. I recognized the CMP hang tag on it (sent the request letter to CMP) IDing some unusual parts so I jumped on it and got lucky!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote French addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 1:24pm
These pics are of a trafic control in Rome by the Carabinieri (Military Police) in 1978. Sorry no more info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 7:35pm
Can you tell us more about the photos?
Also if any sort of identification of the units?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote French addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 4:01am
Just for the fun of it, 2 pics of M1 in Italy in 1978




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2021 at 11:08pm
Midway Italian Return from PW Arms 2021
Underwood 4,043,XXX.

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants. No

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight WRA

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel.  No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock?  No

6. Does the stock have the selector cut?  No

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above?  No. 12

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished.  Blued, Maybe refinished, but if so shows more wear than the matte black finish on the barrel, receiver, etc.

9. What color is the metal finish of the carbine.   Mostly matte black.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edinalaska Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2021 at 10:24pm

Midway USA M-1 Carbine, purchased June 2021.

Quality Hardware, Underwood barrel, listed as Very Good to Fine, S/N 4828xxx

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? NO

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? NO

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? STRAIGHT / LOW CUT

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. NO

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? NO, but “RMC” barely visible on left side in sling area.

6. Does the stock have the selector cut? NO

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? NO, 12. Also marked “J-S3”?

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. BLUED, NO

9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine. PARKERIZED. Wil send sheet later




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UtahDean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2021 at 7:12pm
I just sent the data sheet on my Midway M1.  It has an IBM barrel and receiver.  Midway rated it as very good to fine.  It shoots pretty and I'm really enjoying it.

1.  Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? No
2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? Yes
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Black, I can't tell if it is refinished.a
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine.
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