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Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests
    Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 11:50am
But was that the only transfer of carbines to Italian forces? 
Just doing a little searching the web, this author writes.
"After the summer of 1944, the four Combat Groups of Italian Royal Army that participated in the decisive Allied offensive in Italy, were entirely equipped with British, Canadian and American built guns and vehicles."

Could M1 carbines have been amongst that equipment?  I just don't want to close the  door on possibilities if such possibilites are reasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

If there are late production carbines in the mix, then assuming these are a group, these didn't get into Italian hands until late in the War or post-war.  On the other hand, if there are no late production carbines, then its possible these were wartime assistance. 

Matt, according to records the U.S. transferred carbines to Italy via MAP from 1951-1963.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 10:24am
I'm speculating on the journey of how these initially ended up in Italy.
It seems the odds are in favor of this carbine being with troops in Europe (or resupply to those in North Africa).
In which case it adds to possibility that these were first used and possibly turned in for repairs by units in Sicily and then Italy. 
If there are late production carbines in the mix, then assuming these are a group, these didn't get into Italian hands until late in the War or post-war.  On the otehr hand, if there are no late production carbines, then its possible these were wartime assistance. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 9:49am
Not sure what you are speculating. The mostly correct? The non FAT marked are a mix. Many seem mostly original with the stocks and small parts swapped.

There are several very early carbines that came back to the states that are as delivered for the most part.
Just the same we are seeing some early ones from different locations.

I posted a 7364 that has a heavy roll marking of the numbers, have to look for it.
It is a Bavarian return from the CMP. So that one went to war and wound up in Germany till it was given back to the US Army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 9:30am
Over in the the CMP forum, there is a post stating Inland M1 Carbine S/N: 7429 is a Midway Italian return.  
Such a low number!  What are the odds such an early production carbine stayed stateside in say August or September '42? 
It would be interesting to find the latest production carbine amoungst this batch of returns (the Midway ones without FAT rebuild stamps).
I'm sure you can see what I'm speculating about here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tahoe303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 21 2021 at 1:36pm
Hello  
Been awhile since I've posted anything here but just picked up a couple carbines.

Thought I'd pick the Collectors brains here to see what I might have!

I have read the great Italian Carbine Thread with photos and printed a copy for my files.
I just picked up a couple of M1 Carbines one of which is an Italian reimport the wood and finish look identical to the first photo in this thread.

Inland #732603 with an SG (Saginaw) stamped on the left of the receiver. 
Bbl is an Inland   General Motors Date of 5-43 Muzzle Wear <1.5
Hand guard is early 2 rivet Inland and very loose at the nose end, Stock only has an FAT 65 rebuild stamp on it and a small "G" stamped in the front of the pistol grip. Not sure what the finish on the wood is.
The Type 3 barrel band is so tight you can hardly slide it forward to release the handguard.

Wrapped around the bottom of the Triggerguard is what looks like an official white ID tape with blue lettering:

CMP Games, Creedmore Cup Match.

Round bolt, all finish matches and seems like a smooth light gray, all lettering sharp. The only part which has a different deeper dark color is the Type III rear sight and it has bright whitening in the windage lines.
This is a very nice-looking carbine I have an Italian Sling on the way, reason I went after this one was to me it is a Saginaw variant; I have a Saginaw S'G' - Irwin Petersen ($50 in 1971!), and a Saginaw S.G., which I just picked up also, it came with an odd bayonet which turns out to be the Italian bayonet for Italian M1 Carbines it's in mint condition. The Saginaw S.G. is a rebuild with 2 proof P's and faint rebuild stamp I'm still trying to figure out. The wood on it is all SG marked.

Will have to print and remember how to do a Data sheet when I have time.

Oh yes NO IMPORT markings, I won't buy a USGI firearm with Import markings.

I'm guessing I'll be sending off to CMP for provenance letters soon.

I'm curious if the Saginaw S.G. is from DCM/CMP also. 

The last Inland I lucked into a couple years back for $650 had sold on the CMP Auction in 2008 for $850. I recognized the CMP hang tag on it (sent the request letter to CMP) IDing some unusual parts so I jumped on it and got lucky!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote French addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 1:24pm
These pics are of a trafic control in Rome by the Carabinieri (Military Police) in 1978. Sorry no more info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 7:35pm
Can you tell us more about the photos?
Also if any sort of identification of the units?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote French addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 4:01am
Just for the fun of it, 2 pics of M1 in Italy in 1978




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2021 at 11:08pm
Midway Italian Return from PW Arms 2021
Underwood 4,043,XXX.

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants. No

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight WRA

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel.  No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock?  No

6. Does the stock have the selector cut?  No

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above?  No. 12

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished.  Blued, Maybe refinished, but if so shows more wear than the matte black finish on the barrel, receiver, etc.

9. What color is the metal finish of the carbine.   Mostly matte black.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edinalaska Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2021 at 10:24pm

Midway USA M-1 Carbine, purchased June 2021.

Quality Hardware, Underwood barrel, listed as Very Good to Fine, S/N 4828xxx

1. Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? NO

2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? NO

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? STRAIGHT / LOW CUT

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. NO

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? NO, but “RMC” barely visible on left side in sling area.

6. Does the stock have the selector cut? NO

7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? NO, 12. Also marked “J-S3”?

8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. BLUED, NO

9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine. PARKERIZED. Wil send sheet later




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UtahDean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2021 at 7:12pm
I just sent the data sheet on my Midway M1.  It has an IBM barrel and receiver.  Midway rated it as very good to fine.  It shoots pretty and I'm really enjoying it.

1.  Are there any rebuild markings or remnants? No
2. Is there a FAT marking or any other markings on the stock? No
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? Yes
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Black, I can't tell if it is refinished.a
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the metal finish of the carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mekc57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2021 at 3:42pm
Midway Inland s/n 224614 2-43

1. No rebuild marks
2. No FAT on stock
3. Straight stock high wood
4. No FAT on barrel
5. No S/N on stock
6. Butt plate is 12 row
7. Bolt is blue, not refinished
8. Finish is blued/black

Inland barrel, front sight and receiver 
Rear sight Saginaw type 2
Slide Winchester 
Sear inland
Recoil plate Saginaw
Trigger housing standard products
Bolt Quality Hardware 
Mag catch NPM
push button safety 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B37NGx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2021 at 2:17pm
1. No
2. No FAT, original IO only
3. Straight 
4. No
5. No
6. No
7. No, 12 appears Rock-ola
8. Parkerized 

IBM barrel and receiver 3909619
Rock-ola recoil lug
Overland Stock
Winchester Bolt
Rock-ola butt plate 
Push safety
Ramp sights 
NPM trigger group

Take my advice I don’t use it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hipilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2021 at 9:27pm
Midway Underwood   2481XXX  W  "Flaming Bomb"

 

 1. Remnants of rebuild markings - No rebuild marks

2. Is there a FAT marking on stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight Stock

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No

6. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No, 12. No markings on butt plate.

7. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue, No

8. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Dark brown/ Parkerized

(Working on the data sheet)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StraightShooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 29 2021 at 6:11pm
 WINCHESTER 1,138,XXX 
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight ( Type I with WRA GHD and crossed cannons)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue/black possibly refinished
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Brown/blue

This rifle was from the current batch from Italy but not from MidwayUSA. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pauljstewart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 28 2021 at 11:48am
Midway National Postal Meter  4091xxx

 

 1. Remnants of rebuild markings - No rebuild marks

2. Is there a FAT marking on stock? No

3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock? Straight Stock

4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No

5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No

6. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No, 12. No markings on butt plate.

7. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Blue, No

8. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Dark brown

Inland type 3 rear sight, Inland rotary safety stamped H.I., push button mag release, No M2 stock cutout, Type III stock, Low wood, oval cutout, IO stamped, No other stamp markings on stock, Underwood 9-43 barrel with flaming bomb, Punch proof mark, Barrel is turned and unground, 4 rivet handguard with TN stamp, Type 3 barrel band double stamped SI with bayonet lug, Inland trigger housing, Type III hammer stamped IN, The gas cylinder was machined integral with the barrel, Gas piston not stamped, Winchester Flat Bolt, Milled front site no stamp,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 11pennreserve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 26 2021 at 12:13pm
I picked up two of the Midway carbines, one a Saginaw S.G. and the other a Winchester.  Working on datasheets but, for now …

SAGINAW S.G. 3,496,XXX
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight (Rock-ola high wood)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.  (Winchester)
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Parkerized, worn finish
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Parkerized 

WINCHESTER 1,162,XXX
1. Remnants of rebuild markings?  No.
2. Is there a FAT marking on stock?  No.
3. Is the stock a potbelly or a straight stock?  Straight (OI high wood, destroyed in transit - thanks UPS)
4. is there a FAT marking on the barrel. No.
5. Is a serial number stamped on the stock? No.
6. Does the stock have the selector cut? No.
7. Does the buttplate have 14 dots wide as described above? No.
8. What color is your bolt and is your bolt refinished. Deep blue black, little wear, poss. refinish (?)
9. If not filling out a datasheet, what color is the finish of the carbine. Deep blue black
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2021 at 9:50am
You make a good point, 35. I suppose the police wouldn't have much use for a bayonet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2021 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Pro Libertate Pro Libertate wrote:

I found it kind of interesting that Midway claimed to have purchased ALL of these rifles from the importer PW Arms in Redmond, WA; however, I recently came across several Gun Broker auctions for M1 Carbines that also had PW import markings from the seller "Veronesi Gunworks". These rifles had a starting bid of $1,200 and a Buy it Now price of $1,400. There were several Winchesters, a National Postal Meter (one of which I bought), and numerous Inlands.

It's also intriguing to note the rear sights have been replaced on most of these rifles, yet many of them still exhibit early features you would have expected to have been replaced during arsenaling. Mine has an IP type 2 dogleg hammer, type one barrel band, and push button safety.

It really would be interesting to know the history of these rifles.

 Without a shred of evidence or proof, I'd bet the rifles were "upgraded" for or by the police. To my way of thinking the adjustable sight would be a great benefit for anyone, but the barrel band/bayonet lug and rotary safety, maybe not that big of a deal. Too, the sights could've been replaced quite easily while replacing the barrel bands and safeties require a bit more work.
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