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cleaning mags

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: cleaning mags
    Posted: Mar 06 2021 at 1:54pm
I actually think we can draw some general conclusions by taking into consideration the publishers and  what they use to substantiate their statements.

I'll pretty much discount everything in the article that quoted an unsubstantiated claim that WD-40 is hydroscopic.  That would be interesting if there is anything to support that.  Same article illustrated lubricating cogs with wooden cogs and latern gears in mill.  Ummm I don't think so. 

From the others, from Dan and Charlies experience, and to some degree my own there seems to be lots of agreement.  WD-40 can be useful for penetrating and cleaning - sometimes.  It does provide some limited moisture protection but can not be counted on.

Perhaps it is better at repelling water than it is as a moisture barrier.  This would be analagous to a paint film which rain will bead up on, but will over time allow moisture to pass through.  There's a number of Forest Product Laboratories tests publicly available that show this property for various paint type finishes.

The other property that seems all too true is that either on its own, or in combination with other lubricants,WD40 forms a high friction film.   It may be useful for cleaning but certainly can't be counted on to lubricate.  Worse it may cause gumming later on especially when combined with mineral oils and greases.  

I wouldn't use it for a lubricant on the carbine any more than I'd use cosmoline for lube.  As much as I like Boeshield T-9 for certain things, I don't feel comfortable about using it on the carbine for the same reasons. 


Its interesting the carbines (and rifles) were originally field serviced with a "light preservative oil" where temperatures were moderate, and the "special preservative oil" in cold climates.   My sense is that even today gun oils are what should be used.  That Tetra lube (made with a teflon type of product) I bought is reallyhigh viscosity cold.  I dont really know how good it is as a lube but was not impressed with its corrosion protection shown in the Brownell's test.

edit:
Just found an Alox gun oil patent submisson from 1943.
Not sure gun oil discussion belongs here.  But of relevance is
a. The characteristic of absorbtion into the oil any condensed moisture on the surface.
b. A considerable portion of the text is about improving corrosion resistance.



Edited by Matt_X - Mar 06 2021 at 2:58pm
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 06 2021 at 12:25pm
Interesting is the Brownells test the plates are among the the best looking, but they add

"contains petroleum distillates that could affect certain stock finishes. May cause gumming on internal components and inside receivers. Long-term use on gunmetals has been thought to limit the effectiveness of certain bluing solutions."

And then go on that it is a favorite of some old timers.
I suspect they know this is a debatable topic. Then again I am sure every product can be debated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 06 2021 at 11:59am
I learned my lesson when I used WD 40 on the Wife's Clock.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 06 2021 at 11:29am
The internet is an interesting place where you can find diametrically opposed opinions as well as everything in between if you look.
It took about 3 seconds to find this.


Now I doubt any of us will be salt spraying magazines, especially everyday for 4 weeks.
Below is what someone posted as a followup.


American Rifleman, though it does not touch on rust.

here is another along the lines of AR above

Also looking at some very old posts in machinist groups it seems that the WD-40 for rust protection has been debated over and over for years and years with those that love it and others say its good for some things but not as a protectant, others say to stay away.

I think I said it above somewhere that I used to buy and sell machinery and wood shop machines.
I learned very early on with some tools I dunked in a compound bucket filled with WD-40 to protect before storing in an unheated storage unit.

Here is a expensive dividing head that was bought new and dunked in the WD-40. The whole unit had a fine coating of rust that thankfully cleaned up. The black and pitting you see over the majority of the area was from the surface you do not see when rotated.



I had to toss hundreds of dollars of precision machine collets in late 80s prices that were "protected" with WD-40.

I would walk into auctions and see machine table tops that you could actually see the spray pattern from the WD-40 that was sprayed on with its best intentions.
So I speak from personal experience and not "controlled studies"

Would I clean a magazine with WD-40? Sure, but I would wipe the WD-40 off and as soon as possible wipe it down with something designed as a gun specific protectant.
Would I clean a firearm with WD-40? Absolutely not!

I will however pick up the new version and give it a try on non firearm related items.

Consider what magazines are going for these days and choose your cleaning and protectant wisely


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 05 2021 at 8:06pm
Here's another comparison of rust prevention of a variety of well known products. Some intended for long term storage and protection and others not.
These include Cosmoline, Boeshield T-9, Tetra Gun lube and WD-40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2021 at 6:35pm
"It must be some new law in CT. due to the VOCs."
Some states are taxing the refinery's and distributors IIRC on a Metric Ton rate.
Also speculating on supply - demand..... no different than Crude oils and the like.
Would explain the marketing of smaller portions.... Which have a higher profit rate.
Notice when things start up on the Left coast they tend to leap to the East coast, then creeps in to the middle bread basket.

I know we've jumped off topic but to just finish, for 'Joe Public' about the best floor varnish they can buy over the counter are the Oil based Poly's in their choice of sheens. VOC limits again IIRC will be in the 350 + or - range. Old growth Douglas fur is one of the nicest grain patterns there is. Southern hard pine is sharp also. You were smart to save that flooring.

After a 1 way 2 hr drive to a specialty wood shop I hand picked a 1" x 2" x 4' long piece of Birdseye Maple that cost me $98.00 and that was a deal because I knew the guy there and had worked on his Mackinaw Island home years ago. Time was tight and the roads were getting bad, but I was only 20 minutes from the Irwin Seating Co main offices, I wanted to stop to inquire about Robert Irwins daily log he kept during 'Attempted' production with John Pederson. The Maple is for my Wife's curio cabinet she got from her now deceased Mother. It's about 125 years old with a Amber Shellac finish that has wrinkled up. I've been experimenting with the Powdered shellac and believe I can get the 2lb mix to match the old color. I'll 'Faux' this new finish to match the alligatored old top coat. I'll get it but it's very time consuming because you can just do a little each day. Shellac was used by the Egyptians and possibly the Incans or Mayans.

I'm still licensed to buy heavier product, but am planning on not renewing because of the costs involved and keeping Haz Mat records of product purchase vs usage. Yes we had to account for what we bought and where it was used and how much used... You nearly need your Lawyer with you to go over the SDS anymore. I miss the challenges to the jobs we once did, but don't miss the paperwork and fees involved. Even our trucks had to have signage we we hauling Hazardous materials. And those plates weren't cheap.
I've still got a stash of John Deere Green and yellow with Lead ! Among some other old tractor makers colors. I'm a go to guy when they want the real thing for restorations. Something thats a true match and covers!
I'm also sitting on about 350 gals of Walmart's patented Blue from when we did new builds for them.

I jumped the hoops and payed for it but the Meth cookers have better angles.

Sorry so long and off topic guys  Disapprove

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2021 at 4:02pm
hmm, I may have to take a drive over the boarder, I see it it at the Home Depot there.
It must be some new law in CT. due to the VOCs.
 
My house in NY had Douglas Fur flooring that was over 100 years old. I have never seen anything else like it in modern equivalents. You just cannot match the old growth grain
When I moved in I sanded, thew down lacquer sanding sealer which dried fast enough that I could give it an oil coat. Next day second coat and done.

15 years later I did a second floor addition. I reclaimed the flooring where the steps went and used it for the second floor landing to tie in the old with the new.

Around construction time NY banned the lacquer sanding sealer in gallon containers. You could only buy in quarts or pints!
I did score enough to finish the main room on the first floor. The other rooms I used the new water based instead of the oil.
You could see the difference from room to room. Few years later the lacquer and oil in the heaviest used room was fine but the adjacent, less used room the floor needed to be done again.

At some point I found the sealer in gallons and picked up a few. I was probably out of state. I used one for woodworking projects. The other sat on the shelf. Fast forward 15 years I found it on the back of the shelf, cracked it open and it was still good!


 NY they banned the lacquer sanding sealer in gallon containers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2021 at 3:04pm
Covid is a big part of it. High demand in Asian countries. US Gulf Coast refiners have geared up to boost Naphtha output and back down on Jet fuel because of less demand by the aviation boys. 
High $$ too because of increasing Crude oil and Coal tar, it will keep going up.
I believe California has banned it's use / sale. 
And what happens out there eventually gets to us.

I remember when the Left Coast started lowering the Solids and VOC limits in our oil based paint products.
Soon afterward all the makers were pushing the latex based products. We set on bulk purchases that lasted us a few years... invested enough to nearly break me $$, while we let other paint contractors be our test rats with the newer lines. Some poor finish results until they developed the Acrylic lines.

Back to point.... Some say Gasoline is the best substitute for Naphtha, but I've no experience there. Would worry about the volatility factor. Paint thinner probably best being less volatile and pretty equal viscosity, dry times.

***I just seen Klean Strip VM&P Naphtha in a gallon at our local TSC store this morning for $17.99 a gal.***

Lacquer thinner was same price $17.99 gal. Paint thinner / Mineral spirits  $10.99 gal. All were Klean Strip brand. I was looking for Denatured Alcohol for a 2lb cut of Amber Shellac I'm mixing for a replacement cabinet stile on a Antique Curio cabinet for the Wife........ they were out.
But Deer feed was on sale !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2021 at 2:39pm
Just did a search of the local home depot and they have it in quart size at eight bucks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2021 at 12:14pm
I recently went to pick up some naphtha at the big box store for cleaning electronic contacts

I found there is no longer a place on the shelf for it.
I went to the local hardware store and they no longer stock it in qt size. The price of the gallon expensive at 65 bucks!

I found some Ronsonal to use.

So is it covid, or is it something that is being phased out?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 68coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2021 at 10:09pm
Standard Zippo lighter fluid (Ronsonol) is aliphatic naptha. Ronsonol is a subsidiary of Zippo inc. Therefore, buy the Ronsonol & get what you pay for instead of paying extra for the name. Even better, buy it by the quart or gallon at Lowes & save even more on the SAME product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 21 2021 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:


BTW, I just seen a JLC (or is it JTC ?) mag in fair condition fetch around $70 + or - the other day on Auction.

Ch-P777


I think I'm going to pretend you didn't tell me that. LOL.
But if someone here really needs, let me know..
I'll have to treat it nice now.  The stamp is very light.  I think the magazine itself seems slightly heavier than the I.I.   The magazine catches are wider and more round.  Now I'll have to go over the SG and S'G' magazines.  Probably should be cleaned and wiped with oil anyway.



Re: recycling paint thinner.  Learned that from the painter when I worked for the NPS on maint.  Much much smaller scale than you were doing, but concept is the same. 

For the rust touchup I was going to try that "Blue magic" system since I have it.  The one big spot on the side is pretty rust free.  However I like your suggestion.  I'll have to make sure I pick up some rust convertor.  I'm pretty sure what I had went bad and I tossed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 21 2021 at 4:57pm
Add to my above reply:

Should have added I lightly spot sanded the rust areas before treating with the turn Black rust convertor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 21 2021 at 4:48pm
When I was still working we'd buy Thinner by the 45 gal barrel. Depended how big the on going - upcoming jobs were. We'd usually average buying 5 or 6 at a time for Industrial jobs. Maybe use 1,000 gals to complete + or - . I remember (back in the day) getting it for $1.50 a gallon. We'd mark and use empty barrels to collect used thinner. Like stated earlier after letting the solids settle we'd use it as first clean, then finish off with fresh thinner. Problem with metal containers is they would sweat and collect moisture. Much prefer the plastic jugs.
When the used barrels were no longer needed I had a bunch of people that would take them for burn barrels.

When we painted the Lansing GM Assembly Plant addition on the big open areas 1 man could put out 1,000 gals in a 12 hr shift. Usually 6 Sprayers a shift, night and day. 24hrs could see 12,000 - 14,000 gallons of ceiling Dry Fall sprayed on. It would take 12 to 14 men to maintain the pump stations to keep material getting to those 6 spray tips. Add the cover up and draping crews along with the (Sub'ed out) scaffold crews and you could have 60 Journey men / Laborers to keep 6 men spraying overhead deck a shift. I had people from all over coming for barrels. I miss the challenge..... but my back sure doesn't.

Rust Spots,
I tried some of that rust convertor that turns rust black on some mags by spot treating with a Q tip.
Letting it dry between, by repeated dabbing with the Q tip or foam brush you could build the area back up flush. Now it does get darker and darker the more you apply, until it dries over clear with no rust it can get to anymore to neutralize.  Rust is neutralized and the resulting 'Black' won't match your original Blue but sure looks better with no worries of the Rust starting up again. And if using a Foam brush that Thinner will rinse it out to be used again.

Matt,
Nice Re-Use of your Thinner.
BTW, I just seen a JLC (or is it JTC ?) mag in fair condition fetch around $70 + or - the other day on Auction.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 21 2021 at 2:06pm
This morning a couple of magazines arrived that were still more or less in their wrappers.

One other solvent that is even weaker than mineral spirits is butane (lighter fluid).
I thought about using that but when I removed the paper it felt waxy, not sticky.  IMO the lighter fluid wouldn't be strong enough.  Besides I have lots of used mineral spirits so here are the before and after.

As received


Out of their respective wrappers.


The one with the red  [cellophane ?] wrapper went in first as it was the cleaner of the two.
I used a soft toothbrush to scrub the spots that had rust or residue.  It was in the spirits 5 - 10 minutes at most.
The one out the brown wrap needed a little more soaking and scrubbing.  It was in the spirits 10 to 15 minutes at most.


Inside the red cellophane[?] was a Int'l Silver for Inland.  It needed less cleaning but had rust wherever the finish had been lost.
Inside the brown wrap was a J L  Clark for Rockola.  After cleaning the exterior, it looks rust free.

I'll disassemble both and clean the insides the same way.  But I thought people would like to see how well even previously used mineral spirits/paint thinner works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 20 2021 at 12:05pm
@painter777  Last night I was thinking if the WD's reaction with (some?) oils is similar to ammonia for removing wax and oil.  It cuts wax or oil residue real well,  but if it dries before its picked up it turns into a black sticky mess. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beezer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2021 at 9:35pm
I bought a jar of Super Lube.  I use it on all moving parts that rub.  I’ve noticed it holds up better than Hoppes gun grease.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2021 at 8:08pm
This is classic example of what I hate about propriatary and SSS.
Its nearly impossible to know what's in them and so its impossible to know if the stuff is compatible.
I've seen charts for automative greases showing which bases are comaptible and which are not.   But in the automotive and industrial markets there's a lot of pressure from the manufacturers and the industries themselves to use products that meet certain standards and specs.

What do we have to rely on?  Not much.  For the carbines we know there were two oils spec'd during the war, and the standard gun oil (heavier) was obsoleted. 
A few months ago I bought the SSSS oil and grease that Fulton has been selling because I figured they were 'the experts'.  Well now I have my doubts about how deep their expertise in lubricants goes.

For those who dont know
SSS =  Secret Squirrel S___  or any number of variants thereof.
Add another S for Super.  That's the really good stuff.

And not to pick on WD, a can of it bailed me out of a situation yesterday.  The sno-throw's clutch wouldn't slide on the shaft - maybe from the ancient grease.  WD cleaned it up enough to work pretty well.  Then I used it to get the grease off my hands since I nothing else there.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2021 at 6:18pm
  I agree there are certain oils for certain applications.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2021 at 5:46pm
I sure know what not to use WD40 on...

Years ago (Pre-Internet) I decided to use WD40 on one of my Wife's Pre 1930's Musical German Black Forest Cuckoo clocks.
All parts, case, decorative details, bellows, mechanical components...... Everything Authentic. 
How hard could it be ? Clock just needed some oil... right ?
I laid a thin layer of dry cheesecloth over the mechanics and lightly sprayed over it. Let it set a few hours, wound it and carefully hung it back up. It was purring like a kitten and me grinning away at what I knew I'd saved $$. She has quite the clock collection and back then they'd run $375 to over $400+ for just a cleaning and oiling.

She wasn't home, it was a surprise for her when she heard / seen it working again for all of a couple days. Then after a few days of 'The Look' she called her Clock guy. The old gruff German guy had it about 3 or 4 weeks. He called her when it was ready and requested I be there. I figured no big deal he is old and that clock is F'ing heavy. Upon arriving he chewed on me for what felt like a hour. Clocks take multiple types of oil and lube depending on the part. My WD40 trick discolored and gummed up the brass gears. Worst thing was it had attracted moisture that affected the balance of precision parts. My WD40 backyard tune up cost me over $1500.00 and near ruined a clock valued back then at over $6k. He showed me minute bottles of highly refined oils that he said ran nearly $200 per fl oz.

To this day when I see a can of it I think about that clock.
I'll use WD40 to break a nut and bolt apart, if I can't find the Liquid Wrench. But I'll put real oil on it when it's being put back together. So the next time it will unscrew.

FWIW
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