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Other Items Made by Prime and Subcontractors

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Other Items Made by Prime and Subcontractors
    Posted: Oct 27 2022 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Fixed one picture.
Do you know what the other was?


Sorry. I don't. :(
I just tried looking through the waybackmachine for JL Clark but not finding it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2022 at 3:19pm
Fixed one picture.
Do you know what the other was?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2022 at 7:18pm
That's great Jim.  If I came across that coop, doubt I'd figure out it was intended for human babies sun tan!

Broken link above in the J.L.Clark post should show Altoid boxes from Clark's current website.  https://jlclark.com/

Here's a 1962 newspaper clipping with a history of the Clark's beginings.

and a 1917 view of their Rockford Ill. building





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jim77cg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 1:11am

Last night came across this product advertisement from Trimble Nurseryland Furniture, Rochester NY.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2022 at 10:49am
Good stuff Matt. Here is one I found awhile back.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2022 at 10:22am
J. L. Clark
from their current website (2022)
Perhaps their best known product today?

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/OtherJCL1.jpg


One of their first lithographed tinned cans


And a fairly obscure one with their logo on the the bottom.




Edited by New2brass - Oct 27 2022 at 3:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2022 at 3:00pm
Cleaning up the workbench and was delighted to notice the Seymour Smith & Son logo on the spokeshave's blade.

 



(Manufactured replacement magazines)
 

Facilities still extant and apparently available.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

We all know that there are still numerous undocumented parts transfers from one company to another to keep the lines running. So an oddball part in an otherwise all correct carbine is entirely possible and possibly correct/original. That's why we say, don't be in a hurry to change a single seemingly incorrect part. It might just be original.


Yes, and I'm going to lay a few more examples of what I've encountered in my carbine collecting adventures. Stay tuned!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 8:21pm
We all know that there are still numerous undocumented parts transfers from one company to another to keep the lines running. So an oddball part in an otherwise all correct carbine is entirely possible and possibly correct/original. That's why we say, don't be in a hurry to change a single seemingly incorrect part. It might just be original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 31 2022 at 10:30pm
Several factors combine to convince me that although undocumented, the W-B extractor is original to my S.G.. The story, which explained the hunting modifications, combined with price paid & the fact everything else matches up perfectly leads me to believe that Grand Rapids ran some extractors down to Saginaw because they were running short. That, and a helpful member from a forum years ago who was affiliated with some Saginaw club told me it was original when I first mentioned buying it.
Thanks for all your input on this Dan, I'm going to rely on you a little more going forward with oddball parts I'm seeing on other carbines I'm doing data sheets on.

Regards . . .
                Charlie

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?


Possible, but based on reports, unlikely. As I said above, Never say never.

Contemplate this, No carbines were accepted by ordnance and this lead to the cancellation of their contract and it being handed over to Steering Gear. Each carbine would have been shipped with a magazine. Ten carbines to a crate, so 10 mag to the same crate.
They would have had to provide spare parts as per contract, so parts would exceed carbines.

Steering gear came in, gauged the parts and salvaged what they could. Assembled into carbines and shipped out the carbines with mags (and slings/oilers).

Early in S'G' deliveries we see more IP marked pars but in a few months the S'G' parts show up.
I suspect the IP mags went out the door with the carbines.

Though the Saginaw factory was producing receivers for Inland, they were not producing complete carbines yet.
The two factories used by Steering gear to produce carbines was one contract. See CCNL 357.
In that newsletter I believe it points out that the first deliveries of S.G. carbines was out of the Grand Rapids facility.
It may be possible that both factories used the magazines on hand to get carbines out the door until the subcontractors were secured and makings changes were made.

The magazines Wayne pointed out were made by Union Hardware. International Silver, and Keeler Brass.
Grand rapids did not subcontract International Silver. Saginaw did not subcontract Union Hardware. Both had additional magazines made by other subcontractors



This is all speculation on my part.

All magazines were not wrapped. We have observed 100 magazines packed in a cardboard box wrapped. We have also seen 100 magazines in the cardboard box not wrapped.
Of those wrapped the packaging may be unmarked.




Edited by New2brass - Nov 13 2022 at 11:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:18pm
Anything is possible, but like Dan mentioned above all the magazine that I have seen in that particular packaging have been marked K-S'G'. 
Some actual IP magazine markings would be IP-I, UP, I-IP, K-IP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 

Before Saginaw Gear took over production of M1 carbines at the Irwin-Pedersen facilities, how were magazines marked when Irwin-Pedersen was producing M1 carbines? Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:53pm
That magazine has been listed for a while, due to the price.

No prime contractor produced magazines. They were contracted for magazines to go with the carbines as well as spares(usually 10% ?).
All the magazines were all subcontracted out.
the government also had direct contracts with some of the companies that made magazines.

CCNL 206-7. 202-1, and 384-15 have information on the markings of parts and how ordnance recommend parts to be marked, but that ordnance would hold the prime contractor responsible.
I recapped this info here.
 

I have never heard of an IP magazine coming out of one of those packages. This was in one of the newsletters as well. But never say never.
It would seem that IP had ordered the wraps and S'G' subcontracted magazines were the only thing reported in them.

Unfortunately the price is driven by people wanting that "Holy Grail" IP carbine and parts.

On the note of spares or contract magazines, QHMC did have a 6-44 contract for 70,000 dollars worth of magazines. This is after carbine production ended for them.
It is unclear if they had magazines left over that ordnance was willing to accept, or just another contract. QHMC had a few contracts after their carbine production ceased.

There are QHMC marked magazine wrappers. It would be interesting to see if all of the magazines in those wrappings are the same marking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Louis Losi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:59pm
Gunbroker is listing an auction for an Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine magazine, still in the original packaging. Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? The seller's starting bid is $175.00 with no bidders. Is the magazine worth $175.00?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 1:14pm
Page 200 shows extractors from Rochester were sent to both
Saginaw, Saginaw MI
Saginaw, Grand Rapids MI

so the question still stands:
Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids or Saginaw plants (from page 200) be marked W-B?

The answer is no, Rochester made extractors for IBM with the IB marking and according to page 200 Rochester sent an emergency delivery to Poughkeepsie. These would be marked IN

W-B extractors were made by Wadsworth Watch Case Co for IBM at Poughkeepsie. So your W-B extractor on your S.G. would not have anything to do with the Rochester contract extractors on page 200.

IBM Poughkeepsie did send extractors to Grand Rapids. If they sent them to the Saginaw plant as well that would be a transfer that we do not know about.
Could Grand rapids have sent some to Saginaw? Possibly.
Could your extractor have been replaced? Possibly.

Like always, if the carbine appears to be original and there is a part or two out of place, do not correct it.

Hope that helps!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

There is a little more to it.
Rochester was making safeties and extractors before making carbines, extractors were marked IB, IN, IQ. Safeties marked IN

Safeties for IBM carbines were marked EMB, W-B, EPB and extractors IB, IN, WB, W-B.
War Baby page 200 shows that an emergency delivery of safeties were sent from Rochester to Poughkeepsie, These were marked IN

Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids (from page 200) be marked W-B?
If not how would the be marked?

*note* clarification added in last sentence.


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The extractor in my S.G. is marked W-B, that was likely from the transfer of the 64,000 from IBM to Saginaw that was mentioned on page 200. The extractor in my S'G' is marked W S'G', which, per WB page 428 was sourced from Wadsworth Watch Case Company of Dayton, Kentucky. The IN marked safety in my S'G' was likely from the transfer of safeties to Grand Rapids from IBM.




Edited by PingCMP - Jan 13 2022 at 12:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 12 2022 at 12:37pm
The one that got away from Ron Dalhamer.
One of Inland's first products, a Steering wheel

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2396/SteeringWheel.jpg


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ncin1911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 6:15pm
unmarked

or maybe we are talking about Grand Rapids not Saginaw? Then  I-S'G' ?
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