Thinking about "incorrect" parts

Guys, we've discussed this before, and I am probably guilty of trying to beat a dead horse by bringing the subject up again...but judging by the emails I get, many/most, maybe all forum members are busy trying to complete restoration projects with carbines. I'll admit that most of the fun is "in the hunt," but at today's prices for parts, the abundance of repro parts, and the rarity of many good parts, please don't let these collecting obsessions make you crazy and broke (or strain your marriage).

We must remember that the Carbine Industry Integration Committee (CIIC) transferred over 4 million parts among carbine manufacturers, to produce slightly over 6 million carbines during WWII. CIIC transfer records can be found in the book War Baby!, but these are only the documents that author Larry Ruth found at the National Archives. Not included are those records that the National Archives does not have. Over the course of 39 years, the Carbine Club found plenty of evidence of "non documented" transfers among carbine manufacturers, so bottom line: virtually anything is possible with carbines!
   
New collectors: Don't be in a hurry to switch "incorrect" parts on a carbine that otherwise appears to be factory-original, just because an author or a collector or someone on the internet told you it was "wrong." You very well may be messing with the true character/true history of that carbine.

I'm reminded of a few SG and S'G' Presentation carbines. Charles Runchey, GM of the S'G' plant in Grand Rapids brought home a carbine with an incorrect IN (National Postal Meter) safety. There are no CIIC records of any NPM safeties going to Grand Rapids, but it obviously happened. Should the current owner of that carbine - whoever he is - get on ebay and try to find an S'G' safety?!

At the Saginaw plant, two presentation carbines are known. One was owned by the "Gun Plant" Supervisor, John Helveston, and the other by the GM of Saginaw, William Doerfner. The former has an incorrect round-s flip sight, and the latter has an incorrect Inland mag catch and firing pin. There are no CIIC records of these transfers. Both carbines have highly-figured Q-RMC wood! Again, no records of Rock-Ola providing nice stocks to Saginaw, but it obviously happened! Via a phone call or a telegram?

The oddest thing about Mr. Doerfner's carbine is that the bolt is parkerized. What!? - you say! No way! Everyone knows that all bolts were blued/dulite during WWII....Well, Mr. Doerfner took this gun out of his cabinet and gave it to me. Should I change out any parts? :)

Always keep an open mind on carbine parts, guys. We have learned a lot over the decades of collecting, but we certainly haven't learned it all.

And don't forget "Never say Never, and Never say Always."

Good collecting!

Marty Black

Marty Black wrote: And don't forget "Never say Never, and Never say Always." Marty Black

Amen!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Yeah, Gene....I wouldn't change out that sear, especially if you've got a late vintage Winchester. Looking at War Baby!, unknown quantities of "unspecified parts" were sent to Winchester by the Saginaw plant and Standard Products at an unknown date in 1944. And no doubt, there were more shipments that the National Archives doesn't have documentation on.

As the majority of carbine manufacturers (and their parts subcontractors) wound down production in the spring of 1944, we can be sure there was a lot of "horse trading" going on, to enable everyone to complete their amended contracts, while disposing of excess parts.

I'll admit to being surprised to learn, in Carbine Club Newsletter 361 (researched and written by Chris Albright), that in early 1944, Inland was using flip sights from the manufacturers that were shutting down: National Postal Meter, Rock-Ola, Quality Hardware, Underwood, and Saginaw (both plants). War Baby only documents records from National Postal Meter and Underwood.

When in doubt, don't change it out! Resist that strong temptation!

Regards, MB

Keep in mind that record maintenance has a price, and also potential liability for companies. If there were no legal, or other compelling need to keep production documents, they were likely discarded, or destroyed. Any Carbine records associated with part transfers between manufacturers that still exist today probably were supplied to the government, for whatever reason, or they were kept by the company out of convenience, or possibly for historical purposes at their own discretion.

In the business where I work, we transfer parts between facilities all day long. We have at least a dozen employees who do this as more than 50% of their job. Electronic records, and the associated transportation paperwork is kept to a standardized schedule, and then shredded, relegated to tape archives, and eventually deleted.

I know of a company that exists today who was a major producer of small arms during WWII...About a dozen years ago, they threw out most of their old records kept since their inception. A friend of mine wishes he would have known, and been there to hand out $100 bills for their WWII documents. Some of the documents had been made available for research during the past several decades, but no doubt, valuable collector information was lost. The reason they were discarded was because a new CEO took charge, and he viewed the documents as potential liabilities, and they also took up a lot of space.

My point is we usually have a partial understanding of what was originally a much larger picture of standardized production processes and habits. It would be nice if we had all the records, but we don't. I think all collectors should understand this, and take it into account in their assessments. An understanding of manufacturing today can really help in analysis of production practices decades ago. Exceptions occur. Part shortages occur. Over-production occurs, sometimes at the whim of hourly associates, if they are not closely managed. Under production (not to established rates) occurs frequently, for myriad reasons, leading to aforementioned part shortages and exceptions. If we keep the driving force behind WWII production in mind, then the sharing of parts to improve overall Carbine output makes complete sense, particularly when paired with the interchangeability effort, and various part markings indicating their origin.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Why Carbines?,

My guess is that Railway Express Agency transported most of the parts. Just my $.02.

If the government micro-managed the movements, then anything is possible, but I would think that fiscal constraints would have still driven most transfers to the cheapest available carrier, which was probably REA at that time.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com