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Taiwanese M-1 Carbine

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DonFlynn View Drop Down
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    Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 3:48pm
Ok, found this at a LGS today, $800 and tax
 
 
Taiwanese Police marked M-1 Carbine, Inland receiver with a 6-44 marked Inland barrel.
 
Only "import" marking was this
 
 
 
Taiwanese Police marking on the receiver. No other markings on the barrel, gun bunny behind the counter said the guy who had it on consignment got it in the 60's before import markings were required.
 
It's suppose to have been rebuilt in Japan (Howa ?) at 1 time
 
  
 
Round bolt
 
 
 
I can't find any markings on the trigger group, but I only looked on the sides
 
Same with the slide, but I didn't look close
 
 
 
 
 
Only odd thing was this
 
 
This was in the forward of the handguard. I'm thinking it's a shim of some kind the last owner used to try to increase accuracy or maybe the hand guard had more play than he liked. Everything felt fine when I took it out.
 
Bad news is I can't test fire it until next month, personal issue taking some time up the next few weeks  
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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 4:32pm
It's a Royal Thai Police carbine made for them by Howa Machinery Ltd of Japan. The original barrel may have been replaced with an Inland barrel. Howa made their own barrels. It's typical for the other Howa parts to be unmarked. This is a very interesting find.
JackP
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DonFlynn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

It's a Royal Thai Police carbine made for them by Howa Machinery Ltd of Japan. The original barrel may have been replaced with an Inland barrel. Howa made their own barrels. It's typical for the other Howa parts to be unmarked. This is a very interesting find.
 
COOL. When the counter guy told me it was a rebuild in Japan I figured the lack of markings on the trigger group meant it used a Howa group. I'll check the receiver again tomorrow (out for a bit) and see if I can see any Inland markings under the rear sight.
 
Could it have been a early Howa for Thailand that they used a leftover Inland barrel? The rear sight is adjustable and according to the M-1 Carbine sight that's not common
 
 
I gotta oddball, that's for sure
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 5:33pm
It would be unusual to find a GI receiver with the Royal Thai Police logo. I believe only Howa receivers were used. Another clue would be the shape of the rear portion of the receiver. It would have an extended flat to support the Howa rear sight. I can't tell from your pictures. Your TH is definitely Howa as is the operating slide (I can see the characteristic step in the TH lug as well as portions of the grooves in the slide handle). Are there any markings in the sling well?

I think it's more likely that the barrel was changed when it was imported. There were reports of barrel damage noted by the importer. That would also explain the GI front sight.
JackP
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DonFlynn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 6:14pm
Ok, I just checked the receiver (gun is at a friends house, getting some work done at my place and I moved my safe until the work is done.....lucky he's close). It's differently a Howa receiver, 5 digit serial number in the 02000-03000 range (I'm not posting the exact number of course Wink )
Barrel makes sense, shame it doesn't have the Howa made one, I bought it as a shooter but now it's something different Smile   
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David Albert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 8:56pm
About 8-10 years ago, one of the front row vendors at the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot had about 30 of the Howa Carbines available for sale at $600 each. I looked over every one of them, intending to buy one, but for some reason, I passed. This was one of those times I wish I had decided differently. The lowest serial number I observed was in the 1800 range. Anyway, I wish I would have purchased one. They were all the same as this one, featuring the Thai crest.



David Albert
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DonFlynn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 09 2019 at 9:30pm
[QUOTE=David Albert]About 8-10 years ago, one of the front row vendors at the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot had about 30 of the Howa Carbines available for sale at $600 each. I looked over every one of them, intending to buy one, but for some reason, I passed. This was one of those times I wish I had decided differently. The lowest serial number I observed was in the 1800 range. Anyway, I wish I would have purchased one.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com[/QUOTE]
 
If they were in the $600 dollar range a decade ago then what I paid for mine doesn't seem too bad 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 7:34am
Hi DonFlynn

I did the research and authored the web pages on the Howa carbines.

Since yours has the logo of the Royal Thai Police on the front of the receiver the entire carbine was made by Howa for the Royal Thai Police.

Take a look at the top of the trigger housing lug at the rear of the trigger housing. That step is a hallmark of one Howa made. Ditto the vertical serrations in the slide handle.

Your front sight and barrel are replacements for the Howa parts that were there. Most likely put on the carbine by whoever imported it. Ditto the stock and handguard.

Are there any markings or a logo on either side of the rear sight? The rear sight used by Howa on those for Thailand is fairly distinctive and yours wasn't one of them. Howa made stamped adjustable rear sights for the carbines in the 50's but not used on those made for Thailand.

Take a real close look at the left side of the receiver between the rear of the receiver and slide track and see if there are any markings there.



All of the Thai carbines were bought by a Canadian company. Those in the USA the vast majority were purchased from the Canadian company by Old Sacramento Armory in Sacramento, CA using the name New Helvetica Corp. Thus the initials NHM. They put the import mark on the barrel for some of them. But if Old Sac sapped out the Howa barrel it wouldn't have the import mark. Check the receiver as shown above.

A few, and meaning a handful, were imported by a few collectors using a couple small importers.

I spoke with 2 of the employees who worked at Old Sac Armory when the Howa's arrived. The condition of the carbines was what one might imagine from having served in a jungle environment subject to monsoons. Most the wood was rotted and/or broken. Many the barrels were bulged inside the bore from having been fired when the barrel bore was blocked. Likely by mud and debris but possible due to a bullet lodged in the barrel.

Old Sac tried to sell them without doing any work. They got so many returns they regrouped. Refinished the metal and replaced the parts that needed to be replaced.

I would need to see closer pics of the various parts to attempt to ID which are Howa vs GI replacements done by Old Sac Armory or an owner afterwards.

I have a good example of the Thai Royal Police carbines on the 3rd page of the Howa carbines along with their history. Made 10,000 1965-1966 specifically and only for the Royal Thai Police. No Howa markings but I'll leave the why to reading the web page...

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_howa3.html

You paid the average price they been selling for recently.

Jim
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DonFlynn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 10:05am
Originally posted by sleeplessnashadow sleeplessnashadow wrote:

Hi DonFlynn

I did the research and authored the web pages on the Howa carbines.

Since yours has the logo of the Royal Thai Police on the front of the receiver the entire carbine was made by Howa for the Royal Thai Police.

Take a look at the top of the trigger housing lug at the rear of the trigger housing. That step is a hallmark of one Howa made. Ditto the vertical serrations in the slide handle.

Your front sight and barrel are replacements for the Howa parts that were there. Most likely put on the carbine by whoever imported it. Ditto the stock and handguard.

Are there any markings or a logo on either side of the rear sight? The rear sight used by Howa on those for Thailand is fairly distinctive and yours wasn't one of them. Howa made stamped adjustable rear sights for the carbines in the 50's but not used on those made for Thailand.

Take a real close look at the left side of the receiver between the rear of the receiver and slide track and see if there are any markings there.



All of the Thai carbines were bought by a Canadian company. Those in the USA the vast majority were purchased from the Canadian company by Old Sacramento Armory in Sacramento, CA using the name New Helvetica Corp. Thus the initials NHM. They put the import mark on the barrel for some of them. But if Old Sac sapped out the Howa barrel it wouldn't have the import mark. Check the receiver as shown above.

A few, and meaning a handful, were imported by a few collectors using a couple small importers.

I spoke with 2 of the employees who worked at Old Sac Armory when the Howa's arrived. The condition of the carbines was what one might imagine from having served in a jungle environment subject to monsoons. Most the wood was rotted and/or broken. Many the barrels were bulged inside the bore from having been fired when the barrel bore was blocked. Likely by mud and debris but possible due to a bullet lodged in the barrel.

Old Sac tried to sell them without doing any work. They got so many returns they regrouped. Refinished the metal and replaced the parts that needed to be replaced.

I would need to see closer pics of the various parts to attempt to ID which are Howa vs GI replacements done by Old Sac Armory or an owner afterwards.

I have a good example of the Thai Royal Police carbines on the 3rd page of the Howa carbines along with their history. Made 10,000 1965-1966 specifically and only for the Royal Thai Police. No Howa markings but I'll leave the why to reading the web page...

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_howa3.html

You paid the average price they been selling for recently.

Jim
 
Thanks Jim, when I can get to my friends house again to get a look at it (work should be done on my place this week, then I gotta move the safe's back) I'll take better pictures.
 
I don't remember any markings in the position you mention, and looked for them when I was buying the carbine. I was looking import marks when I first looked at it. I'll check the sight too (I might be able to swing by my buddies place later if he's home....I gotta keep him from fondling it anyway....he's got the keys/combo to my safes in case something bad happens to me while I'm getting work done)
 
Sounds like the importer or past owner did the work needed to get a functioning carbine out of it, if it shoots I'll be happy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadycon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 1:15pm
Taiwan or Thailand?
M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by shadycon shadycon wrote:

Taiwan or Thailand?
 
Thailand, the gun counter guy told me Taiwanese but from the research we've been doing it's a Royal Thai Howa made one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 1:53pm
OK, I looked on the left side receiver track, if I looked at the right spot there's no import markings, must have been on the barrel.
 
Here's the rear sight again
 
 
You can see the crest with a "H" in it, I'm guessing that's Howa
 
Top of the sight
 
 
I'm not sweating the serial number, I figure I gotta receipt Smile
 
Left side
 
 
Slide
 
 
It's got the Howa serrations you mentioned Jim, didn't see any other markings on the slide or TG
 
 
That's where that brass shim I mentioned was. I'm guessing the hand guard had more play then the last owner liked, feels like a normal M-1 Carbine too me Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 3:36pm
I believe your Howa receiver was modified to accept the USGI sight. The rear flat surface behind the dovetail was originally wider on the Howa receiver than on a USGI receiver.

The "H" in a shield on the rear sight is not for Howa. It was made by Hemphill Mfg. Co., Pawtucket, R.I. Commonly found on later Winchester carbines.

Also, the recoil plate appears to be a cast post war replacement possibly made by Rock Island Arsenal. Note the visible parting line. The Howa recoil plate would have been machined, not cast.

By the way, nice pictures!
JackP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

I believe your Howa receiver was modified to accept the USGI sight. The rear flat surface behind the dovetail was originally wider on the Howa receiver than on a USGI receiver.

The "H" in a shield on the rear sight is not for Howa. It was made by Hemphill Mfg. Co., Pawtucket, R.I. Commonly found on later Winchester carbines.

Also, the recoil plate appears to be a cast post war replacement possibly made by Rock Island Arsenal. Note the visible parting line. The Howa recoil plate would have been machined, not cast.

By the way, nice pictures!
 
Interesting. I didn't think the Howa's could use a USGI sight from what Jim's article said. That might make life easier if I ever have to replace it (my Blue Sky marked Inland is getting one when I can send it in to Fulton Armory for a new barrel)
 
Thanks for the picture compliment. I took my better DSLR and a semi macro lens when I went over my friends house before Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 6:08pm
Hmm, either Howa changed how they made the receiver or something is amiss.
Take a look at the length and style of the slide slot Jim posted and compare to yours, clearly different. Then there is the rear of dovetail differances. Howa should not be able to accept a adjustable rear sight.

Think you can take pictures of the receiver from all sides. Picture of recoil lug on back of receiver. Maybe a picture of the front ring logo with slide out of way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Hmm, either Howa changed how they made the receiver or something is amiss.
Take a look at the length and style of the slide slot Jim posted and compare to yours, clearly different. Then there is the rear of dovetail differances. Howa should not be able to accept a adjustable rear sight.

Think you can take pictures of the receiver from all sides. Picture of recoil lug on back of receiver. Maybe a picture of the front ring logo with slide out of way
 
I won't be able to get to my buddies house again till weekend after next, going out of town this coming Friday.
 
Could Howa have used one of receivers they might have made for US or JSDF Carbines on the Royal Thai order? We know it's common with other companies (FN and Browning Hi Powers comes to mind) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 6:54pm
@Dan, good observation. Also, note the proof punch mark on the receiver in front of the rear sight. You don't see this on other Howa receiver images online. Maybe this is a GI receiver with the U.S. markings removed and Howa markings added.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 7:01pm
Don, no rush, we will be here

Jack, that was my thought. With receiver details I might be able to figure what make.
Also very interesting is the front ring, wonder if ruminants of original marks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Don, no rush, we will be here

Jack, that was my thought. With receiver details I might be able to figure what make.
Also very interesting is the front ring, wonder if ruminants of original marks.
.
 
I get a chance I'll take it apart and take detailed pictures. I've a decent photo rig here I use for another hobby (I build plastic model kits and take photo's of them for internet use) but it's a pain to lug around
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 7:27pm
I just reread you post and you said "inland receiver with inland barrel"
Does it say inland above the serial number? It might be under the rear sight

When you do get to pictures can you take a picture of the hand guard with brass piece zoomed or for perspective of where the cut is
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