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Stock Question

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GeorgeG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Stock Question
    Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 5:22pm
I just picked up a stock I was hoping I could get some information on.  It appears to be an un-issued high wood for a S'G' or later IP.  It's marked RSG in the sling well, has an internal ink stamp but no cartouche at all.  It does not appear to have ever been sanded or oiled.  The included recoil plate is a type 2 marked IP-W and it has a PM-IP butt plate.  A couple of photos are attached.  I know there are a lot of fakes out there and hope I didn't get burned too bad.  Your comments would be appreciated.  Thanks, George







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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 6:09pm
Hi George, welcome to the forum. Any chance you could post a picture looking down at the recoil plate area?
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Charles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 6:11pm
It appears to have had the forearm taped to it at one time. Any marks on it?
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GeorgeG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 6:41pm
I'd be happy to post another picture, but it would have to be next week as I'm out of town. There is some old hardened tape residue on the front that looks like it may have held a hand guard on at one time. The only markings are the RSG and an ink stamp in the channel. It looks like the last 3 digits are 320. There seems to be another in front but its totally illegible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 6:47pm
The PM-IP seems a bit suspicious on the butt plate, think some of those came from the west coast but hope not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2019 at 7:05pm
I wish I took a photo of the butt plate. If it helps, the checkering pattern is the same as that in Craig Riesch's book. It also looks a little shop worn with a few hints of rust here and there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 5:24pm
As requested, a few more pictures of the stock are attached.  Any additional comments regarding its authenticity would be appreciated.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 6:22pm
I am unable to confirm that you have a genuine RSG stock. There are three things that raise my suspicions. First, the shape of the inletting around the recoil plate is not typical of most RSG stocks that I have seen. Second, the unusual texture of the wood fibers in the sling well is not typical of a 70+ year old stock. Third, your stock looks too "new". It appears to have never been oiled, which is suspicious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 6:22pm
I could be wrong but after seeing the picture of the recoil plate area, I also am a little bit skeptical that this is an un-issued RSG stock. I also question the rough milling on the inside and why would it have never been oiled which was part of the stock making process?? May be too good to be true.
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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 6:31pm
However, the butt plate looks legit. Compare it to the IP butt plate shown here.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/buttplates.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 7:24pm
The stock is on the crude side. My thoughts were that it looked old with lots of handling marks and small chips. It also has a bit of mold in the sling well plus traces of what looks like preservative.  What really sold me was the numbers in the channel.  I guess all that can be faked though. At least it wasn't a really expensive lesson. Thanks for all of your expertise. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 9:05pm
Is there just the one hole for the Butt plate screw under the Plate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 10:04pm
I must be getting old. I had the butt plate off but can't remember if it had one hole. It did have what looked like a circle about 1/4 inch in diameter. I'll have a look and post another photo if you'd like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by GeorgeG GeorgeG wrote:

What really sold me was the numbers in the channel.

On all of the Irwin made stocks I've seen the numbers in the channel are a green color ink stamp.
Inland stocks made by SE Overton had a similar ink stamp thought to be a Julian type dating system, but different color purple/green.
The Irwins were nearly neighbors of the Overtons, but the green number ink stamps found in Irwin stocks we believe stood for the Shift and Work Station location.
Your stock does appear to have that Coke bottle profile at the front nose but doesn't stand out as proudly as a un sanded stock. You can see your stock has been sanded pretty heavily.. note the Butt plate hang over. Early on Irwin stocks had a tight fit around the Recoil plate, like yours. Later on you'll find RSG and replacement IR stocks with more clearance back away from the plate to limit the cracking in this area, having more of a U shape.
At first I was giving thought to your stock having been sanded to much and was rejected.
That would explain why the Op slide channel and slingwell weren't finished being detailed sanded.
But doesn't explain why it would have the RSG stamped in the slingwell.
It also doesn't explain the larger diameter more aggressive router bit used to clear the stocks Op slide channel.

RSG green ink stamps (S'G')'s

 
If your stock was over sanded past specs and tossed, it may have been taken and years later someone stamped the RSG. I can't answer more than that. I strongly believe that stock didn't leave with the internals not finish sanded and fit to a carbine. The Irwins were furniture makers and known for their use of Dutchman patches to salvage stocks.

Belt sanding Irwin stocks:



Robert Irwin worker test fits action in stock



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2019 at 10:58pm
Point being the Irwin Factory repaired stocks during construction. Walnut was limited, repairs were required. They wouldn't go to these lengths then let a stock like the one posted here try to pass inspection.

Interior knot hole:



Repair:


Recoil plate inlet Chip, Repaired:






Pistol grip repaired


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2019 at 8:31am
Very interesting comments regarding rejected stocks.  The sanding seems to have been done with a belt sander like in your photo, with marks about 35 degrees to the grain.  The only defect I can find, other than the internal crudeness, is in the butt plate screw hole.  It's not quite perpendicular as it should be.  I should add that I tried installing one of my Inland carbines into the stock.  It fit very well, with no lateral movement and required slight downward pressure on the end of the barrel to get it to seat into the recoil plate.  Perhaps it was rejected initially, and then recovered later for use as a spare??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2019 at 4:19pm
Can you post a picture of the numbers in the channel?

To me it looks like someone either pressure washed or steam cleaned the finish off the stock. this would cause the grain to rise and may account for the white spots and mold. If rejected and then recovered it would have a finish applied.

The sanding diagonal across the grain has been observed on original stocks. I cannot make out the grain or finish as there is not enough detail to your picture.

Try loosening your recoil plate is you have to push too much to get the action to bed.

I cannot tell from the lighting, does the finish on the butt plate and the recoil plate match?

@ Charlie, Love that wrist repair! Good stuff as always Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2019 at 5:54pm
I took a few more photos that may help answer your questions.  The butt plate close-up shows the color and diagonal sanding.  I've cleaned a few stocks aggressively in the past and it seems to fade them to near blond, which isn't the case here.  You're right though, the grain is raised a little.  The recoil plate is a shade darker than the butt plate - not sure if that's normal or not?  On the numbering, the photo above is the best one I've got.  They're very faint with the last three appearing to be "323".  There's at least one added number in front, but only the very top is visible.  Appreciate the comments so far.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2019 at 6:41pm
GeorgeG, I hate to ask for another picture, but can you do one that shows the chin of the stock from a side profile? Get close, but not real close if that makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgeG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2019 at 9:12pm
Glad too. Are we talking about the front end where the band goes?
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