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Stock Marks

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BER911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Stock Marks
    Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 11:25am
I would like some help identifying a couple marks on the stock of my early Rock-Ola carbine.  My Rock has a 1704XXX serial number and a "Pot Belly" stock that I have to assume is the original stock.  The left side of the stock butt has the rebuild mark STD PROD RWH.

The unknown marks that I need help with are on the bottom of the hand grip and on the bottom of the stock just forward of the magazine opening.  Your input is appreciated.





Thank you.
Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 11:37am
Originally posted by BER911 BER911 wrote:

My Rock has a 1704XXX serial number and a "Pot Belly" stock that I have to assume is the original stock.


I don't believe that a Pot Belly stock would have been original to your R-Ola. As far as the 181 on the pistol grip that would be a rack number used by whatever armory it was kept in. No idea about the BU and the 1 forward of the mag well.
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BER911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 11:43am
Thanks Wayne.

Do you think the Pot Belly may have been installed by Standard Products during the rebuild in 1949?

Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 11:51am
Originally posted by BER911 BER911 wrote:

Do you think the Pot Belly may have been installed by Standard Products during the rebuild in 1949?


That would be a strong possibility. Are there any manufacture marks on the stock, in the sling well or inside or near the barrel channel.
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BER911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 11:54am
That would be a strong possibility. Are there any manufacture marks on the stock, in the sling well or inside or near the barrel channel.

I have checked the stock and sling well closely and there are no other marks that I can see.

Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 1:56pm
Post war potbelly rebuild stocks were usually birch and either unmarked or marked "SA" along the barrel channel. Inland and Winchester also made potbelly stocks of walnut, like yours, toward the end of their contract. Inland's are pretty obvious with a "OI" or "HI" in the sling well. However, Winchester stamped their stock with an almost microscopic and imperceptible "W" in the sling well. Sometimes this mark gets lost in the wood grain. Also, the Winchester sling well sometimes has a distinctive shape. Any chance you could post a picture of your sling well, both a closeup and a wider angle?


Here's what to look for:


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BER911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 2:38pm
Jack,

Wow!  You nailed this riddle. Thumbs Up  Hidden in the grain (at tip of knife blade) is the almost invisible small imprint of the top half of the Winchester W.  Not only is it very faint, but they struck the W punch at an angle so only the top of the W hit the wood.  It is definitely the Winchester font.

The first picture is the sling well and the second is the pen knife pointing to the mark.  I can not see it in the picture, but I see it with a flashlight at the right angle.





Examining these carbines is like a big treasure hunt; you never know what you will find.  Many thanks!
Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 4:36pm
It's probably a fairly rare stock. You don't see very many wartime Type 5's. I agree with Wayne on the armory rack number, although you would think they would use a method a little less permanent than the deep stamping. Rack numbers change. They are usually stenciled or tagged. The "BU' and the number "1" got my attention because of the unusually flat surface they're stamped on, typical of Winchester stocks. I have no idea what the letters mean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 4:51pm
Thanks Jack for your valued input.  I would have never seen the Winchester mark.

For now, the BU and the 1 will remain a mystery.  Maybe one of our other members will discover similar marks.

Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 6:00pm
There is no documentation of Winchester ever producing potbelly stocks that I know of.
Jack is the picture you show a potbelly?
Please let me know if I am missing something.

It is believed Marlin made post war potbelly stock, they had a M in slingwell which many think is W.

As to the Sta Pro rebuild program.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 7:34pm
Dan, Ruth mentions Type C, Variation 3 ('Potbelly') in late Winchesters in WB!, pg 328. However, WB3 retracts this to say that the "Potbelly" stock does not have the "W" (pg 1129). WB3 makes no mention of who the maker of this stock is. Riesch also mentions the existence of the Type 5 on later Winchester's marked "W" (pg 108, 7th edition)

I know the controversy regarding the possible existence of a Type 5 Winchester stock. That's why I made the comment regarding it's potential rarity. Perhaps the OP can provide additional photos so that we can be certain that this is or is not a Winchester stock.

The stock I showed is not a potbelly. It was intended to show how obscure the "W" can be.

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BER911 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 7:49pm
Jack,
 
I will work with various lighting options to try and get a clearer picture or the partial W mark.
 
Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 24 2018 at 8:21pm
Bruce, also take pictures of the whole stock in profile, both sides along with closeup interior pictures. Top and bottom, too. Also, under the butt plate. BTW, take a closeup pic of the butt plate too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 25 2018 at 10:19am
Jack,

I'll work on getting the additional pictures of the stock and butt plate.

Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 25 2018 at 3:48pm
They say that sometimes we see what we want to see.  Case in point...the W is no longer visible in the sling well.  I apologize for the "fake news" about that mark.  It appears what I was seeing was just the various grains of wood that conveniently looked like a partial letter.

While taking pictures that Jack had requested, I think I may have solved the riddle by discovering two marks I had not seen before.

First, on the bottom of the hand guard are the letters H.I.  I do not know what they mean, but someone in the club probably does.  Here is the picture:



Next, there is a faint SA mark up forward on the mating surface of the stock.  Look carefully and you will see this mark.



The only other mark that I have not already shown (a couple "rack" marks were posted earlier) is the STD PROD RWH mark on the LH side of the butt stock.



Jack - let me know if you still need to see other photos of my Rock-Ola stock.

Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 25 2018 at 6:43pm
Bruce, you have a Springfield Armory post war replacement stock. No more pictures are needed. The "SA" on the barrel channel nailed it. It is not Winchester.

The "HI" on the hand guard shows that it was made by Hillerich and Bradsby Co. (makers of the "Louisville Slugger") for Inland Manufacturing Division of General motors.

The STD PROD mark is an arsenal rebuild mark.

I have to admit that I was seeing things too. Just wishful thinking I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2018 at 8:51am
UPDATE

I found a original Type 1 Rock-Ola stock and upper handguard that are in excellent condition.  The stock is clearly marked RMC and has the crossed-cannons cartouche.  It also claims to have the original USGI cotton sling; we will see.  The stock was modified by cutting down the "high wood" to expose the slide.  From what I read, that was a common modification to the Type I stocks.

It is being shipped to me this week.  Once received I will post some pictures.  It will be nice to have a Rock-Ola stock to match my Rock carbine. Smile
Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2018 at 6:44pm
The Rock-Ola Type I (modified) stock and hand guard arrived.  The stock is "as advertised" in very good condition.  It also came with the proported original USGI canvas sling.

The RMC mark is visible in the sling cutout and the crossed cannons are visible on the RH side of the butt stock.  The IO mark is visible on the underside of the hand guard.  There are no rebuild marks that I can see. 

There are a few small dents, but no cracks that I can see in the wood.

I am pleased to have a Rock-Ola stock to match my Rock carbine.  I know the stock is not the correct type, but that is not a big deal to me.  My Rock-Ola has serial number 1704xxx which I believe should have a Type II stock; a modified Type I is close enough for me.

Here are some pictures of my new stock.










Semper Fi, Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2018 at 9:02pm
Rockola I-cut stocks have been observed mixed in with oval cuts for quite some time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BER911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 04 2018 at 10:02pm
Dan,

That is good to know.  I feel better about my new stock.  Thanks.


Semper Fi, Bruce
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