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Standard Products unmarked barrel

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Bart1015 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 12:26pm
Hello all, 

I have a great shooting Standard Products (2221325) mix-master carbine and I am looking for opinions on the unmarked barrel.

My hope is that this is a USGI barrel that the manufacture had omitted their markings (by accident or otherwise). 

Here are the particulars: 
- The barrel has no manufacture marks of any kind.
- Has a number "1" on the left side of the gas block. 
- Punch mark on the top of the gas block. 
- Short skirt.
- "N" marked front sight.
- It does not look like it was ever modified or had lathe work to remove any markings.  
-The diameter where I would expect to find the manufacture stamping is the same as my other carbine barrel that has the correct markings.
- The finish matches all other components and appears as if it has been with the receiver for a long time. 
- It has a "P" approximately 4 3/4 from the muzzle. 
- The "P" is approximately 3/32 inch tall.  

I welcome any input and that you for your time, 

Brett 




 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 2:57pm
I have a Marlin marked barrel on a NPM. No date.
It has a 3/32" P 5 1/4" back from muzzle. NPM's punch mark 5 3/4" from muzzle.

#1- A number 1 or I on left side of gas cylinder.
#2- On bottom of barrel- 7" from muzzle- Either a another partial P or partial bomb flame lick.
#3- A number 3 stamped on top of the barrel. Halfway between the gas cylinder and chamber.
#4- A Ordnance bomb stamped on the right side of the gas cylinder.
#5- O stamped on the barrel flat next to the gas piston and nut.

Some of the markings on my barrel may have been added by NPM, like the Punch mark.

But it was the 1 or I stamped near the left side of your gas cylinder that interested me.

Thou oriented differently this picture is from fellow member Dave Tennent's Marlin barrel.

Picture from link above:



From same link the oval O on the left rear side of barrel. My oval O is on the flat near gas piston:


Here are my markings as described above #1 - #5:

#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


With all this added, I recall Floyd asking about a unmarked barrel a while back:

Just a WAG, But could it be possible Marlin let a barrel get out without being marked?
We have seen some really messed up markings by them during their struggles to produce barrels.

Lastly most Original Marlin barrels I've seen have a Dark color.... Sorta Dark Blue to Black.
Also possible (?) a Erma barrel like the Sleep Less One (Jim M) has posted in the Bavarian / Oddities link.

Brett, I tried Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 3:06pm
Smells like Marlin...sniff, sniff, sniff,

Just thought of something else; Bart, can you post a couple of close-up pictures of the rear of the front sight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 3:52pm
Thanks Painter777 and Why Carbines? for the input. 

Here is some better photographs of the front sight, I hope they will help:






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 4:21pm
Picture is not very clear buy looks like it might have the typical Standard Products staking on the back of the front sight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by kro1970 kro1970 wrote:

Picture is not very clear buy looks like it might have the typical Standard Products staking on the back of the front sight.

Getting a good photo of that staking is proving to be hard.

I just grabbed a friend's Ethiopian SP carbine with a Marlin bbl to compare to.  Here is what I found:

Unknown if it makes a difference but, 
The unknown barrel is installed on #2221525
The known Marlin barrel is installed on #2110230

Both gas blocks appear to be milled, not a separate part from the barrel.

Gas block to barrel
Known Marlin: The transition is slightly curved, or radiused into the barrel
Unknown: The transition is *90.  

Gas block at indexing mark:
Known Marlin: Radiused very slightly to the flat area of the gas block.
Unknown: Radiused with a larger ark to the flat part on the gas block. 

Front sight: 
Known Marlin: Staked across the rear of the sight.
Unknown: Staked inline with the sight key. The sight itself has not been struck. The staking looks like it was hit lightly.  Almost like they staked the sight key, then installed the front sight.  Or, it was a Friday and Rosie was in a rush to get home. 

"P" on barrel:
Known Marlin: 2 very clear "P"s and they both appear the same size, but smaller compared to the "unknown" barrel "P".
Unknown: Only one "P" that is larger then the known Marlin barrel.  This "P" may have been "muted" when bead blasted and refinished. 

Other:
I did notice, although the finish on the Ethiopian is very thin, almost gone, that the milling lines on both barrels are very similar.  

Again, thank you all for your input. 

The barrel in question is the one on the RIGHT side (when applicable) of the photographs.  








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 6:22pm
Sounds like the unknown barrel has the SP staking. It should look like it was punched on each side of the key on the back of the sight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 7:31pm
I also have a std pro with an unmarked barrel that's clearly original. General thoughts on mine were that it was of Underwood mfg.

https://imgur.com/a/5DT28bk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 7:32pm
Scratch the Erma Werke barrel thought
After looking over the pages on them I see they were all made with the Swaged Gas Piston Housing... having a additional sleeve on the front (When compared to US GI Barrels).
To add some of these were received by the CMP with no added markings on the barrel by the Germans/Bavarians .. etc.

Info above pulled from:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 7:41pm
I did some additional digging on my late SP that has an Underwood dated 3-44. First, the proof P is pretty much the exact distance from the muzzle as the OP's and also the shape of the proof P, while not identical, is so close that I feel more certain than not that it's the same proof mark. Now, I kinda wonder if it's an UEF barrel and not Marlin. However, there's none of the markings the OP's barrel has outside the proof P.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

I also have a std pro with an unmarked barrel that's clearly original. General thoughts on mine were that it was of Underwood mfg.

https://imgur.com/a/5DT28bk

Yours really looks like it has the same features as mine.

Very interesting to say the least.

Thank yo for the photos. 

Brett     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

I did some additional digging on my late SP that has an Underwood dated 3-44. First, the proof P is pretty much the exact distance from the muzzle as the OP's and also the shape of the proof P, while not identical, is so close that I feel more certain than not that it's the same proof mark. Now, I kinda wonder if it's an UEF barrel and not Marlin. However, there's none of the markings the OP's barrel has outside the proof P.

It certainly does look like it could have been made by Underwood. But, at this time we just cant be sure.  

It would be great to have mine and an underwood in hand at the same time to compare. 

Brett  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2021 at 10:26pm
Brett's,
 Barrel appears to have original finish which isn't as dark blue/black as a Marlins original finish.
The P on his barrel being closer to the muzzle than the Marlin P position and his P being a bit taller and also appearing to have a larger loop.

Sure looks like the UEF barrels I just looked over. His finish color looks more Underwoody too. 
I'd believe it. Especially after seeing the different gas block details shared by Marcus.

The 1 or I on the left side of the gas cylinder is the only reason I thought a possible Marlin. But none of the other things listed or that we see on Marlin barrels are present.
I vote UEF. You can verify or recount my vote if you want to.

Thx Dan and GotSnlB28 for sharing those links. The pics of the frt sight staking which look to me just as Kro was describing for Stan Pro. 
2 of my Stan Pro's I checked are staked the same as GotSnlB28 pictures...... Like Snake Eyes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 11:58am
Ch-P777

My barrel does not have the swaged gas piston housing so I do not think it is a UEF barrel. 

Brett 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 12:46pm
Brett,
I didn't say your barrel was Swaged.
Up top I said it might be a Erma made barrel. 
But after I seen Erma barrels were made with the Swaged gas cylinder,
I said to Scratch the idea of it being a Erma barrel. 

Underwood barrels have the Milled block.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Brett,
I didn't say your barrel was Swaged.
Up top I said it might be a Erma made barrel. 
But after I seen Erma barrels were made with the Swaged gas cylinder,
I said to Scratch the idea of it being a Erma barrel. 

Underwood barrels have the Milled block.

Charlie-P777

I am sorry, I miss read.  

I am leaning toward it being an underwood.  

I guess in the end it does not matter, it is a really good shooting rifle that I use a lot and I never worry about it getting any new dings or scratches etc.  I do not foresee me selling this one anytime in the future. 

I am please to know it very well could be a USGI barrel that could also be original to the receiver.  It shows, with carbines, things may not be the way we would expect them to be.  

Brett 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 6:47pm
That's good it shoots well. I have not shot mine yet. I picked it up for a very fair BIN price from a pawn shop out west. I'd guess they thought it was a replacement barrel and priced it accordingly. Original parts except for the rear adjustable sight which looked to me like a field replacement. I'm happy to have one of these "oddball" unmarked barrel rifles and good to know others exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

That's good it shoots well. I have not shot mine yet. I picked it up for a very fair BIN price from a pawn shop out west. I'd guess they thought it was a replacement barrel and priced it accordingly. Original parts except for the rear adjustable sight which looked to me like a field replacement. I'm happy to have one of these "oddball" unmarked barrel rifles and good to know others exist.

Sounds like a nice rifle.  

I enjoy the investigative aspect of trying to figure out how these rifles were originally built, updated, and modified over time. Its even more intriguing because they were assembled with other manufacture's parts at different time periods.  

Our barrel oddities are just a part of that puzzle. I wonder how many other rifles are like ours. 

Brett 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2021 at 10:18pm
I have not had time to pull anything and take a look.
Just a few thoughts, The Blue Marlin looks as if the barrel was ground. But we also see that there are obviously just turned Marlin barrels. Nothing earth shattering there, as most of you know the early requirement was ground but it was found to save time to only grind the front where the sight goes and the gas chamber area, if applicable.

Interesting the correlation of a few items Charlie had pointed out. I may have to get back to the ordnance bomb.

So taking a less quick look than my original look, one thing stands out that may or may not be a clue. Wink

Does anyone notice any differences in this picture?

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