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Standard Products M1 Carbine w/Underwood Barrel

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SargeAF View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jul 11 2018 at 7:17pm
Here is the Standard Products M1 Carbine that my father recently gifted me. Rather than post a bunch of pics, I thought I would just shoot a quick video. Hopefully, I captured enough of it to satisfy everyone’s curiosity.

I find a few things odd, such as the minimal amount of markings on the stock, and the fact that it has the adj rear sight, but does not have the bayonet lug/barrel band. Hopefully, some of you can elaborate. It is a shooter, and is reliable.

Let me know what you all think!

Sarge

https://youtu.be/4Mg5Z3ZVDpQ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2018 at 7:58pm
Pretty good video, Sarge. Thanks for posting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SargeAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2018 at 8:44pm
One thing I noticed about the rear sight, is it is the Type 3 stamped base sight, and it has been staked on the forward right side of the dovetail.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2018 at 9:18pm
Butt plate may be NPM. Buttplates 
FJA = Frank J. Attwood
Trimble TN, I believe the TN stands for Trimble to NPM. Trimble Nursery and furniture was in Rochester NY.
NPM and STD. PRO. I would not expect to see a P proof in circle on bottom of grip. Other P marks would be from rebuild. 
Recoil plate is for NPM and the 'New" is relative, early to mid 43 they switched.

Stock group is not original to the SP, But what a nice group it is!

I am going to guess your serial number starts with 20 or 21. If I have the serial then barrel date seems off, but never say never.
Standard only made 4 parts. Receiver, Bolt, Slide and trigger housings. All other parts were subcontracted. The markings on those parts would most likely have a S as well as another letter, like your sear.
Your trigger housing is a subcontract made by Talon for Std.Pro. 
Your slide should have a number on the bottom outside.

Your hammer does appear to have a mark, take a closer look.
If you want to take trigger group down there are videos here
Do not try to take bold down without a tool. On lug is not an 8, it is two punch marks. Punch marks can be found on many parts. Some are to measure hardness, others to signify it passes an inspection.

oilers were made by International Silver (IS) and correct from mid 43 on any carbine. Earlier they had markings specific to manufacture, but it was dropped as they were the only supplier of oilers.

I would encourage you to fill out a data sheet and submit it. By filling one out you will learn a bit more about your carbine as well as help our research as from what I see so far the carbine looks correct sans stock group.

Rear sights were updated in the field when available. Many individuals added them back in the day. Look through "Newsworthy" section as there is an article on "The good ole days" with advertisments to upgrade that rear sight.

 I do like the video, but will say I prefer pictures as I can study them and point out things that you may have missed.

So we touched the iceberg, you gonna climb it now?
Welcome to the forums.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SargeAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2018 at 10:03pm
Thanks for the info!

So, NPM stock group does not correspond to a STD.PRO. receiver?

The serial number starts with 214.

I looked at the bolt lug under a magnifier again, and indeed it looks like two center punches, right next to each other.

The hammer does in fact have a “SW” stamp.


And, the slide has an “85” stamped on the underside. I had written that down, but missed it in the video.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2018 at 4:03am
The TN in:

 TRIMBLE
     TN

Stands for Toyland Nursery, have also heard it called Trimble Nurseryland... either way it doesn't stand for Trimble for NPM.
You'll find many Trimble/TN marked sling wells made for SG carbines.
They also supplied stocks in a limited role to Inland and Underwood, that I'm aware of.

Trimble was known for the kids furniture, playpens and the nursery furniture they made.
I often forget this myself, but plenty of examples out there.
Sorry if I've completely mis-understood your reply and have everything backward here, it's late, my eye's are crossing.... I'm tired and going to bed. Now if I could just Sleep !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2018 at 9:48am
Charlie,
If you notice I wrote "I believe" TN is Trimble to NPM.
The company name was Trimble Nurseryland Furniture which is found on many patents at the Rochester address both before and after the war.

Early stocks have been observed with just TN. If as you state why did they not use TNF? 
If you think about it as laid out it would be Trimble/ Trimble Nurseryland. But was it a sub contract for the government as it has no mark for a prime contractor.

The Carbine Integration Committee had requirements to mark most every part in a way that they could back tract and know which prime contractor used it and who the sub contractor was.
on stocks we see PU,M-U, RMC, Q-RMC, SJ, BR-B, etc, etc.
Though there are exceptions such as RMC on a correct QHMC they are all marked Sub-Prime (some parts early on were Prime-Sub)

Replacement stocks have been observed with just the contractor who made them on it such as IR, RI, S&C, etc.

So my money is on Trimble/ Trimble to NPM

Your Trimble to SG stocks also go with the CIC requirements of the markings. The top picture I suspect may have been a transfer from NPM to SG as only SG was in slingwell.
The bottom picture with TSG I would suspect went from Trimble to SG.

Naturally this may or may not be the case with the fast pace of production. But as general rules go ......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2018 at 1:49pm
Dan.
I'm gonna humbly stay on the fence for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SargeAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 11:33am
So, the Trimble Nursery & Furniture Co. stocks correspond to NPM carbines, and my Standard Products should have either a Hillerich & Bradsby Co. or Jamestown Lounge Co. stock group (marked S-HB or SJ) to be more correct?

A few questions:

If the original stock to this carbine developed cracks in an area that would have deemed it unserviceable per the TM, what stocks were available to armorers for replacement? I just wonder how they were cataloged in the Army (or any service) supply system? Another words, did each maker/type of stock have its own peculiar part number/NSN, or was there a common NSN that cross-referenced to numerous part numbers, meaning you order a replacement stock from supply using a common NSN, and you may receive a stock from any number of makers? I was an Air Force supply/logistics guru...is it showing? Lol!

I believe the magazines I thought were 15 rounds are actually 10 round mags; they are marked M.N. and U. The 30 round M2 magazine is marked A.I. I inserted the 30 round mag into the receiver, and when I tried to charge the weapon, the bolt hangs up on the back edge of the dummy round portion of the follower (it’s actually raised) after its retracted and going back forward; is this by design (something peculiar to the M2)?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 12:43pm
Sarge, have you read the section on this site about stocks? it list a number of manufacturers that produced war time replacement stocks. I also imagine that all replacements stocks regardless of maker would have had the same stock number.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stocks.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SargeAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 6:06pm
I did peruse the stock group pages, but the only thing I found of interest was this excerpt; “As the war progressed, shortages in Walnut led to the approval of Black Cherry as an alternative to Walnut or Birch. Jamestown Lounge Company of Jamestown, NY, is known to have manufactured stocks using Black Cherry. Standard Products used a limited number of these stocks but discontinued their use as they considered them a poor substitute.”

Maybe the carbine I have had one of these inferior Black Cherry stocks from Jamestown Lounge, as they were a sub contractor/stock provider for Standard Prod, and it was changed out at some point for a walnut stock (such as the Trimble on it now). It’s plausible, I suppose.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 10:47pm
Sarge, Great carbine thanks for sharing. Nice I cut stock. A keeper for sure. it's unusual to see a HW I cut stock that appears to be still in tact yet the rest of the gun has had some of it's parts upgraded.

The mag catch may be marked, have a look at the inside flat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2018 at 10:34am
Sarge, when a carbine passed inspection at factory and accepted by the govenment is when the crossed cannons and in this case the inspector i initials.

This means your stock was on a NPM carbine that left the NPM factory.

Every factory had a chief inspector and the stamp was different at every factory.
If the stock was replaced in the field   it would not have the crossed cannons of a factory.

Every carbine part was completely interchangeable between manufacturers.
Any stock could have came out of the SP factory due to transfers of parts.
It would however have the SP chief inspectors crossed cannons.

Somewhere along the line the stock group got switched out.
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