Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
|
Saginaw or Grand Rapids? |
Post Reply 
|
Page 123> |
| Author | |
BEBIII 
On Point 
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Saginaw or Grand Rapids?Posted: Apr 01 2017 at 4:18pm |
|
A while back, I purchased a carbine from CMP's Auction Site. They listed it as a Saginaw S'G' and I always assumed it was from the Grand Rapids plant. I was just checking the serial number (3,637,XXX) on the Club's "Carbine Serial Number Production Chart" and was surprised to learn that it may have been manufactured at the Saginaw plant. The name on the receiver is hard to make out because of the staked rear sight, but it sure looks like "Saginaw S'G' to me. The barrel is marked "Saginaw S.G. Div." over "General Motors"...no date. Anything else I could look for that would differentiate S.G. from S'G'? The wood doesn't help...stock is "Underwood" and the handguard "Rock-Ola".
|
|
 |
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group 
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 01 2017 at 4:21pm |
|
check the left rear receiver detail.
|
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 8:26am |
|
What should I be looking for?
|
|
|
|
|
1st M1 88
On Point
Joined: Aug 26 2016 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 279 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 8:38am |
|
Your should be looking in this area.  |
|
|
|
|
m1a1fan
Hard Corps 
Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 9:25am |
|
Post above, rounded radius on locator hole shoulder.
Below, squared radius on locator hole shoulder. 
|
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 9:52am |
|
It's definitely square...the hammer is marked "HI"...
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 1:34pm |
|
If square with the hole it is a grand rapids receiver. Both pictures are grand rapids receivers. They were only ones with that detail
|
|
|
|
|
Charles
Grunt 
Joined: Mar 21 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 587 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 1:38pm |
|
That little notch on the back, half way down trigger is defiantly a Grand Rapids trigger. It is an I-P/ S'G' product.
|
|
|
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
|
|
|
|
m1a1fan
Hard Corps
Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 2:33pm |
|
Charles, good eye. It's an Grand Rapids trigger marked S'G'.
@BEB: I've seen a few S'G' marked receivers where the last apostrophe is worn or poorly stamped. Having an adjustable sight in the way doesn't help but a loop and a well placed light can help show the detail underneath. |
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 8:48pm |
 Here's a picture. I did get a close up look at the back of the receiver with a magnifying glass and it's definitely marked "S'G'"...and yet the serial number 3,637,XXX would indicate a Saginaw (Saginaw "S.G.") Division build. What gives? Is the serial number data base wrong, or is something else going on here?
|
|
|
|
|
Charles
Grunt
Joined: Mar 21 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 587 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 9:45pm |
|
Your 3637xxx and my 3549xxx are both in the same group, (Grand Rapids). I have been trying to make some sense of that for a long time. If you look at some of the various sr# ranges for S'G' and S,G, and Irwin-Peder sen, you'll see how difficult it is to see exactly what was going on. I know I'm beating a dead horse trying to figure it out. You are welcome to join me in my quest.
|
|
|
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
|
|
|
|
m1a1fan
Hard Corps
Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 10:14pm |
|
Had the same question when I first started. It's probably in the CCNL's or in a previous thread, but rather than regurgitate it, try here:
http://forums.thecmp.org/archive/index.php/t-1110.html Riesch also mentions observations of S'G' receivers late in the first SG block (See note 3). |
|
|
|
|
Charles
Grunt
Joined: Mar 21 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 587 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 10:31pm |
|
Thanks Ted,
Haven't read it yet but will enjoy. |
|
|
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 02 2017 at 11:49pm |
|
BEB, the receiver you show was made at Saginaw. It does not have the tooling ear shown in other 2 photos.
Is the rear lug that sits in the recoil plate about as wide as the receiver? Also look at the front left side of receiver, any letters there? CCNL 357-11 has she SG S'G' mixture. From what I understand receivers were sent with Saginaw name on them but no serial number. It also states some SG receivers had S'G' name Try taking pictures of stampings. Do not try to take close-ups. Set camera to largest setting and take pics from a foot or two away. You can then crop picture. If you cannot crop or edit then email them to me and I will do it. You may have an odd ball there! |
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 8:27am |
|
Very interesting. I'll try to put up more pictures tonight or tomorrow. It does have the wide rear lug. I just looked at my copy of Riesch's book, and I see the footnote m1a1fan alluded to: "Saginaw S'G' (Grand Rapids) receivers have been observed in the serial number range assigned to Saginaw SG as high as serial number 3,624,4XX."
Of course, the serial number on mine comes around 12,000 higher, and this still doesn't answer my question as to what plant manufactured it.
|
|
|
|
|
Charles
Grunt
Joined: Mar 21 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 587 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 12:47pm |
|
S.G. wide tangs came from Saginaw, S'G' narrow tangs came from Grand Rapids.
The more you know about these Saginaw's, the more confusing they get. |
|
|
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 1:11pm |
|
Not so fast Charles, read CCNL 255-5
Narrow tang receivers made by Saginaw were reported from the beginning up to about 3288xxx then a mixture of both types till 3376xxx. Another change was the left rear detail in respect to tang length. BEB, your receiver was made at Saginaw. the serial ranges mentioned was when ordnance allowed Saginaw to send receivers to Grand Rapids to be serialized, but had the SG name. it was above 3590000 that we have seen the wide tang Saginaw made receivers with the S'G' name. Clearly late in production Saginaw Plant "transferred" receivers to Grand Rapids. Either that or they somehow had unmarked receivers from the SG S'G' mix and used them. For clarity, receivers made in the Grand Rapids plant had what we call an "Ear". it started out rounded but later that machining process was dropped leaving it square. Both round and square ear had the locating hole in the ear which was exclusive to the Grand Rapids machinery. Saginaw Steering Gear at Saginaw and Grand Rapids were the same company, but took over Irwin-Pedersen at Grand Rapids with the existing machinery. Saginaw Steering gear produced other items such as the 1919a4 30 cal machine gun. This may have been the reason they had moved some production over to Grand Rapids plant temporarily so they could work on other critical items while keeping up with carbine production.
|
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 4:54pm |
 The only markings I could find on the receiver were on the right rear...appears to be a small box with "S'G'" markings inside.
|
|
|
|
|
BEBIII
On Point
Joined: Feb 12 2017 Location: South East MA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 5:10pm |
   Actually, the photo in my last post...the box with the "S'G'" is on the trigger group, and not on the receiver. Here are a couple other pictures...
|
|
|
|
|
RedSpecial
On Point
Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Apr 03 2017 at 5:15pm |
|
That's the trigger housing markings. So, at least your trigger housing was produced by the Grand Rapids plant.
|
|
|
-Neil
|
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Page 123> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options