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Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A

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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 8:23am
@gglithox, another tough call.
the OI and Ord bomb was a early 1943 stock

Charlie's list has a 7 on a U stock followed by 7U on a ?
Matt's redo list does not have just a 7, but has a U7
the U is out of the A-F we have seen, but early on could be variations????

If there was a 7 with no letter then just a 9 is possible. Hopefully a stock with CC will show up with an early number without a letter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 10:12am
Dan,
Look again at the first page.  Charlie on one list has a 7 without letter, but manufacturer U.  That might be an oops or might be deliberate.
The U7 is from Ruth's WB!   I don't think we know anyth9ing more about it.

It looks like I'm the current keeper of the list.  What I've been doing is maintaining a spreadsheet with additional columns for full serial number if known, and source of reference.   It also lets us sort by number, letter, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 11:27am
Originally posted by jangle jangle wrote:

Yes Matt, all have boxed SG and CC cartouche on right side.

New2brass,  I've photographed at different angles and lighting and really cannot make out anything other than what I've noted.  If someone sees something different, it's fine by me.

I see an A in the bottom of the loose stock.  So I guess that is pretty certain
I guess the question whether there is a 9 before the A or if its a bomb?   

Related to the bomb stamps, I have an I.R. stock purchased off of ebay with two bombs.
One bomb in the slingwell, and another in the oiler slot.
Unfortunately, the stock was pretty heavily sanded after it saw service as a rebuild. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 11:46am
Maybe.  Certianly interesting enough to include in the discussion.  IIRC some 1,8 carbines were completed at the Saginaw plant very early on.
Maybe the butplatte will be another clue?

Originally posted by gglithox gglithox wrote:

I don't know if this counts but a Saginaw S'G' #1830210 came with this OI flaming bomb with 9 Type 1 I stock. There is no viable cartouch on right side.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 12:06pm
I.R. stock with bomb mentioned above.
My understanding is this was a seperate contract direct with Irwin after the Saginaw contracts were ended.
Further that the bomb stamp indicates US gov't acceptance of the part individually.
One bomb in the slingwell, and another in the oiler slot.
Unfortunately, the stock was pretty heavily sanded.  There is a P on the front of the grip and remnant of an arsenal stamp on the right cheek of the stock.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gglithox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 4:39pm
Here is the butt plate. No markings on side of plate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 13 2023 at 7:24am
Looks like a Saginaw buttplate to me (I'm not an expert) and that would add to likelyhood its an IO stock that was at the Saginaw plant.  However Inland used the same buttplate, so its also possible this was an Inland stock.  Pchanu found an early Inland that also has slingwell markings. 


For now I think it belongs on the list.  Whether it was always married to the S'G' reciever, its probably best to be doubtful.   But Larry Ruth illustrates a 1,82 narrow tang S.G. receiver in WB! but I failed to find the explanation  (IIRC I've read it - just cant' find it now).  Hopefully someone more knowledgable and experienced will chime in.


Edited by Matt_X - Oct 13 2023 at 7:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 13 2023 at 11:15am
Butt plate is a transitional Winchester.

Saginaw was making receivers for Inland before they took over the IP contract. They started with narrow tang.
The wide tang shows up in the Inland 8008xx range of SAG produced receivers.

See CCNL 346-3

I would add a note of a possible on the IO with the 9
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 14 2023 at 10:50am
Updated list of Slingwell stamped stocks.
Trying a couple of new things.
* This as an image and maybe it will be easier to read.
* Sorted the list by stock type first, then by stamp number, with some decisions based on the carbine serial number and stamp size.   These are my guesses based on the discussion so far about possible chronology.  Arguably the stock stamped  bomb 1 E could be at the top of the list, etc.
* Adding the column showing size and location of the stock manufacturer stamp.  The smaller RSG stamp seems to be earlier, and larger stamp later.


8 A and bomb A 8 may be the same stock but recorded twice.  

 


Edited by Matt_X - Oct 14 2023 at 11:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Superdort Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 18 2024 at 8:07am
Hi,

Have here A Trimble/TN Highwood stock with I think 43B or 48D in the slingwell.
Stock was mounted on my QRMC Carbine. Stock is sadly sanded so no other markings.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 27 2024 at 12:44pm
One more Saginaw sling cut marking to add to the list. Highwood oval, small font RSG in upper right corner of sling cut, 32C followed by a small bomb in the bottom right corner of the sling cut. This was a loose stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 12:41pm
Thank you.  Those seem to fall into emerging patterns.

I have to ask, why all of the Overton, RMC, and Trimble stocks at SG? 
Do these line up with Saginaw's highest production months?  or Irwin could not produce enough early on for both Saginaw factories?

There are no stock transfers to Saginaw reported in WB! or WB3.
Some certainly seem to be originally intended for other primes. IO for example.
But WB3 is a copy of JB Powers' chart which is labelled "Integrated" stocks.  Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal trnasfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mike in NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 6:03pm
One more to add. A highwood oval stock with an ordnance bomb in about the middle of the sling cut and a "13A" and small font "RSG" at the bottom of the sling cut.
Stock has the expected SG in a box and crossed cannon on the right side of the stock. This came on a 3.249 million S.G. (not S'G') but I have been told that a previous owner replaced a pot belly stock with this nice SG stock, so I don't believe it to be original to this carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 7:58pm
Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal transfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee?
[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal transfers."

Over the decades the Carbine Club has seen plenty of evidence that the prime manufacturers and the subcontractors helped each other out to avoid the delays and bureaucracy of the Integration Committee. Presumably these "help me out and I'll help you out" transfers were initiated and coordinated with a phone call or a telegram.

Every company involved in carbine manufacture were serving the same master, the Ordnance Dep't, and it was in everyone's best interest to "cooperate and graduate."

And after the carbine contracts were cancelled, I doubt that any prime manufacturer or subcontractor listed these direct transfers on any documentation to be sent to the Ordnance Department or the National Archives.

And we must remember that the Carbine Industry Integration Committee records found in War Baby are ONLY those that Larry Ruth found at the National Archives.

It is anyone's guess how many hundreds/thousands of other transfer documentations were thrown away, lost, misplaced, destroyed at war's end. There was really no historical or national security reason why any of those CIIC transfer records were retained in the first place.

Larry was lucky to find what he did! (And so are we!)

Regards, mb

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 12:14pm
Marty,
Thanks.  That addresses what I didn't understand and was asking about.  So the Integration Committee typically got involved in the transfers.  And the transfer lists in WB are largely from records the integration committee.  I couldn't tell how much they were normally involved beyond the memo in WB about having a government inspector check the parts before shipping.
- Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 1:43pm
Say Matt and all,

My understanding about the Integration Committee (my understanding only, because I cannot locate or remember the documentation that I saw decades ago - perhaps in Larry Ruth's first book, the softbound one...or perhaps in a large stack of National Archives documents (copies) that Ken Schliesmann had. In the 1970s, Ken was researching to write a book about carbines also, but Larry published his first.)

Anyhow, my understanding is that the Integration Committee was the Expeditor for all carbine production. If a prime manufacturer or subcontractor had difficulties due to supply issues, raw material issues, tools and machines, labor difficulties, etc., the Committee would coordinate assistance to keep everyone's production moving. With 9 prime manufacturers and about 1000 subcontractors over the course of production, this was a HUGE task! As we would say today "There were a lot of moving parts!"

In regards to the incompleteness of the lists of Integrated Parts in "War Baby," note that the dates preceded by an X were taken (by Larry) from Requests or Authorization (approval) documents....and the other dates are from actual shipping date documents.

Try to reconcile the X dates and quantities of parts, with the shipping dates and quantities of parts, and we can see that many, many documents were not found by Larry. The lists published in "War Baby" have been very useful to us, but they are also very incomplete.

Then, when we try to factor in the obvious sales/trading/loaning of parts directly between manufacturers and between subcontractors - bypassing the Integration Committee to avoid delay or embarrassment - we have an unknown mix of parts among factory-original carbines.

Hence, collectors should resist the temptation to "correct" a part or two on a carbine that otherwise appears to be factory-original. It very well may be!

Regards, mb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marty Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 04 2024 at 11:09am
Continuing the discussion on the Integration Committee, another possibility is that ALL parts transfers were made with Committee authorization/approval. The "undocumented" or "direct" transfers that collectors have discovered over the years MAY be Integration Committee transfers for which documentation has never been discovered.

I personally think that transfers were made outside the purview of the Committee for short-notice shortages or problems.

The prime manufacturers and subcontractors all faced the same challenges and served the same master (the Ordnance Dept).

Although the corporate General Managers were likely strong competitors in the manufacturing industry, carbine factory production managers and others in lower management were concerned only with meeting production goals. Hence, their motivation to help each other out when needed.

The more we learn, the more questions we have!

Regards, mb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 03 2024 at 6:42pm
While adding a couple more to the spreadsheet  from the Bavarian Armory page, it does look like we have some sort of chronological sequence.  Maybe the stamp was added after the stock was assembled to the reciever and served as a means to track date and shift as we speculated about earlier.   It also occured to me the only letter stamps so far are A through F, and 1 G.   7 letters.    Days of the week ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 10:19am
Saginaw in Saginaw and Grand Rapids were the same company, the same contract.
WB pages 492-493 show that combined there were 12 months of deliveries May 1943 to April 1944

The highest number it 105.
weeks in the year is 52.
52 x 2 =104 which is one number off the 105.

looking at the 1943 and 1944 calendars and counting the Saturdays there would be 53 weeks.

PURE SPECULATION
If they did bi-weekly deliveries, or maybe counts/ crating etc the A-G gets kind of off the tracks
if they had 2 shifts a day this sort of fits.

issues with the system that requires a little research, Saginaw location sent stuff to Grand Rapids to be finished due to needing to ramp up machine gun production.
I am unclear if carbine production was halted, reduced. Did production continue after that?

Grand Rapids factory did a speedy end so they can turn to injector production as a priority.

Now you have to consider those days no carbines were completed at Saginaw MI and therefor absent numbers
The same goes if the factory was closed for a holiday.
Did they only operate two shifts?
If victory shifts (second shifts) were less than a full 8 hours then we would see less of the presumed letters that were part of that shift.

I am sure there are other factors that need to be considered as well.

Thoughts?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 2:03pm
Dan.  It seems like one of the better possibilities to pursue investigating.

A couple of sidenotes:
The U 7 stock was reported in Ruth WB! but there is no additional info.  U could be a C sideways or an oval 0 or some other stamp that at the time Larry or his reporter was not thinking about. 

I grouped the type I stocks together under the assumption these were all made, and therefore used, before any type 2 stocks.  The first assumption is probably false.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but its been stated that RMC continued making Type I stocks while other manufacturers were making Type 2 stocks (oval oiler slots).  The second assumption, that stocks were used in the order they arrived, depends on the organization of the stock room, and how parts were moved around.   

Therefore its possible that
 (a) RMC type I stocks were transfered to SG after Irwin was delivering Type 2 stocks.  
 (b) RMC type I stocks were transfered earlier but were in the back of the room so did not get pulled until demand on the production line was exceeding stock deliveries.   In fact there is a transfer of 100 Overton and 1000 RMC stocks to S'G' in late 1942, which if not all used at Grand Rapids could have been available for Saginaw to draw on. (WBIII p. 1178)

Next update to the list will be sorted in numerical sequence.
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