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Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2021 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

I suspect that's a Bavarian number, unless I am missing something.
Interesting you say that.
There is another stamp parallel to the buttplate that may be something like a rack number.



Here's the direct link to all he posted https://imgur.com/a/v0BEKFE
I'm hoping he'll respond and maybe we can get some closer views of the other side for signs of the ordnance stamps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2021 at 1:25pm
I think it is 3551

The Bundesheer carbines often had a Rack number below the Oiler slot

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2021 at 4:13pm
Could be.
If you guys wouldn't mind taking a look at the thread at CMP there's another SG pictured there as well.  Both are in the same thread, two different carbines and owners.   
I've asked the owner of this one to look for other stamps and marks.   If you not on the CMP forum, I'm fine with passing along info and questions. 

The other SG in the thread has stamps that raised questions in my head.  Some of which has to do with the surface finish.  Please take a look and see what you think. 


Thanks!
- Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2021 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

The other SG in the thread has stamps that raised questions in my head.  Some of which has to do with the surface finish.  Please take a look and see what you think. 
- Matt

Surface finish of the sanding job?

The markings are not consistent with any SG stock markings I have seen.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2021 at 6:21pm
Yeah, I was going to mention on the CMP site that those stamps are wishful thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2021 at 7:01pm
Yes. That's what I was afraid of.  It looked like coarse somewhat cross-grain sanding in that area and then the very sharp boxed SG was applied afterward.  Also the RSG didn't look like the RSG I've seen but it seemed best not to rush to judgement.

On the other hand the Trimble looks legit.  It will be interesting to see if it has any evidence of being an SG or an NPM.  I'm thinking it might be a replacement?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2021 at 8:09am
as pointed out that Trimble stock markings in the slingwell are consistent with some of the Bavarian/Austrian returns where they marked the last 4  numbers of the serial number on various parts. Suffice to say, that stock was not on that SG  when the numbers were stamped and there is nothing that ties it to Saginaw.





The numbers by the buttstock may be from another carbine it was on or a rack number?
Typically the rack number is on the bottom of the trigger housing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2021 at 8:57pm
OK. Maybe we'll do better on the ones in this thread.

Start with the second one, a 3,400,xxx carbine.
Front sight stake is not what I would expect, but the stock looks to me like its a real SG.

Slingwell has RSG in the middle
56 below


The other is a 5.85. 
We'ld have to ask for a slingwell photo. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 21 2021 at 8:07am
How 'bout this one?  Looks OK to me.  Only question I had was the
cartouche is a little further forward than I've seen in other examples.

3501980 
Highwood stock
RSG in large letters - middle.
7 6 F  large in middle (overstamping RSG)

RIA stamp on the stock so may not be original to the carbine.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 04 2021 at 9:14am
As per your request, I have a S.G. type II stock W/ RSG 67 C in slingwell. Serial # 34707XX for your consideration.  Rich
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 07 2021 at 4:36pm
I may be a little late for your quest for SG slingwell letters & #'s, but here goes:                                        High wood TII                                                                                                                                    RSG                                                                                                                                                  67 C                                                                                                                                                  Ser. # 34707XX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 07 2021 at 9:27pm
I don't think its too late.  I assume Painter777 has just been busy.
The more examples that can be documented the better chance we can figure out what the markings represent and if they are chonological - which to some degree they appear to be. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2021 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

36 B T2  RSG 3.44




Thanks Dan. Nice Highwood.  Nice looking carbine - apparently some bidders thought so too!
Interesting that the only dings of note are in the slingwell.




 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 2:29pm
They look like batch numbers from the furniture suppliers. Not stocks, but furniture, like chairs and couches. Here is an example from a Robert W Irwin Co. using this exact labelling technique.

https://grpmcollections.org/Detail/objects/91570

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 3:23pm
Thats interesting. 

Seems like there are several interelated puzzles with these slingwell stamping.
What do the numbers and letters represent?  (Are they sequential? some sort of date code? batch? employee mark? etc)
Who stamped them? 
Where in the process were they stamped.

My understanding is that all stock manufacturer identifiers were stamped by the stock maker.
Its curious that the RSG stamps vary in size and location within the sling well.  Hopefully this survey will also turn up a possible pattern to this.

It seems at least in this example, the letter-number stamp was applied later.

Additionally none of the RSG stocks on Grand Rapids built carbines have the letter-number stamps.  So I think that's why it is believed these stamps were added at Saginaw.

Whatever the reason for the code, it apparently wasn't needed at Saginaw's Grand Rapids operation.  Could it be something about how Saginaw plant's layout?   Or just a different solution to part of the manufacturing  - akin to how each contractor came up with their own sighting range and adjustment procedures?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 4:21pm
Did Saginaw get a run of bad stocks maybe? Possibly discovered post-production making all the brass cranky?

They were supposed to have "Integration Committees" standardizing everything between the different primaries meeting every four to six weeks.

Army Ordnance and Procurement WWII 1991 pages 175-176 (197-198 in pdf)

https://history.army.mil/html/books/010/10-10/cmh_pub_10-10.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 9:55am
The date codes used by the Saginaw plant prior to the war use a letter for the month, followed by a one or two digit number for the day, followed by a single digit number for the year, then sometimes followed by a line or shift digit that may be either a letter or number.

Date H-19- 9 5,
August 19th, 1929.

This example is used on page two of this pdf:
https://hotrod.gregwapling.com/chevrolet/1929-30.pdf

Another example of a Saginaw transmission:
J77 - Oct 7 , 1937
Found here: https://vccachat.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/122494/1938-transmission-date-codes.html

Also listed are date codes and subsequent serial numbers:
1) Date Code: A78 Ser# pad is blank (top shift)
2) Date Code: J77 Stamped Ser# SE5ii42 7 (top shifter)
3) Date Code: A31 Stamped Ser# C18735 (top shifter)
4) Date Code: A12 Stamped Ser# N1958X (Pontiac column shift)
5) Date Code: 319 Ser# Plate blank (Remains of Vacuum shift)

Date code H107 still in use in 1968:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/saginaw-4-speed-with-a-x.760340/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 11:51am
Guys, The second post has a list that was updated. Remember that the serial numbers are what is observed and it is possible that the carbine has been restored.

@ Matt, Is that stock 6F or 76 F? is there a serial? Yes, the numbers and letter appear to be stamped after the RSG

Some stock manufactures used a Julian calendar date that was inked in the slide channel. Most of these markings are long gone.

Sprague & Carleton used numbers under the buttplate presumed to be Julian dates

(note) the toolbar at top has 3 google search bars to search all three of out websites. chose the one on left and search Julian for more posts.

When it comes to the Saginaw plant it was speculated that the numbers and letter were inspectors marks.
It seems that this may not be the case. The letters A-G have been observed with one outlier of a upside down U. Leave out the U and there are only 7 letter, clearly not enough to represent months.
The numbers go from 6 to 105, again too many for months, but possibly weeks?
throw in the fact that Saginaw (both factories) only delivered for 12 months total, now throw in the letters.
I do not think these are stock Julian dates.

If we take 105 (highest number) and times by 6 (A-G) we get 630.
Looking at one of my favorite newsletters, 357, we see that Saginaw @ Saginaw was assigned 638070 serial numbers. Leaving out scrap rate and and unused serial numbers, and making simple math we are talking possibly 1000 serial numbers to  a "lot" for delivers.

^^^***THIS IS JUST SPECULATION!***^^^
__________________________________________________________________
@ Mortar, highly unlikely that there was a bad run and every carbine was recalled fro stock replacement. We have found ordnance document fro much smaller problems.
The Integration Committee was held at Underwood's corporate headquarters in NYC

Saginaw was part of General Motors. As a matter of fact the contracts were listed under General Motors and broken down by divisions. There were many of them!
Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Pontiac, AC-Delco, Brown Lipe Chapman, Guide lamp div, Frigidaire, and the list goes on and on!
Most if not all GM divisions were involved with wartime production including those in Canada and overseas.

Saginaw Steering Gear division made steering gears and I am sure other automotive items. There was also a Saginaw Malleable Iron division of GM. the common thread was they were both in Saginaw Michigan. One was not a division of the other, they were both divisions of GM.
Saginaw Malleable Iron (formerly Saginaw Grey Iron) was a casting foundry that produced things such as transmission cases.
They did have a part in many wartime items for GM and they made the butt-plate for the M1a1 and supposedly trigger housing forgings for Saginaw and Inland.

That PDF is of interest as it mentions Ferro, another item that we are looking for in relation to post war flash hiders and recoil checks marked F in an oval as well as postwar M1a1 buttplates marked F

Should anyone want to try and research it.









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 1:28pm
@ Mortar.
I like the comparison with Saginaw's casting date codes
Isn't purpose of casting dates at least in part to track issues if they occur, as well as wear to the molds?  

Our sample group is still very small.  It will be interesting to see whether we start to find duplicates or a wider variety of combinations.

@Dan
The slingwell photo is from the Guns International link.  I'll repost it below.
I think its a 7 6 F with each character individually stamped.  Fonts dont even seem to match
Stock was through a US rebuild s ono guarentee it was always mated to the receiver.
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:


3501980 
Highwood stock
RSG in large letters - middle.
7 6 F  large in middle (overstamping RSG)

RIA stamp on the stock so may not be original to the carbine.

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