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Requesting Assistance to Identify Correct Bolt |
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Posted: Apr 10 2020 at 12:28am |
Gentlemen--
I was advised to come on over here to seek your collective wisdom on an issue. I was doing some handyman work for an old timer, and in the course of conversation we got onto the topic of firearms and shooting. Long story short, he goes off to a closet upstairs and comes back with something to show me. It was a Standard Products carbine. Dry as a bone, with spiderwebs in the bore. Clearly it had not been fired in years. I don't know much about carbines, but I noticed that A) the chamber was filthy (which I scolded him for--he got a grin out of that) and that B) it was missing the bolt, and I asked him where it was. He said he had absolutely no idea. I told him I could find him a bolt online, if he'd like. I said we could get the rifle oiled and greased up proper, and maybe hit the range sometime. He said he'd like that. So anyway, he hadn't had a bottle of Hoppes in the house in forever, so I knocked it down to pins and gave it a bath for him--and on closer inspection (and a couple hours of internet googling) I'll be damned if this carbine isn't mostly correct. The only part which looks to be incorrect is the AMCO barrel band--and the missing bolt. Here are some pics: The one thing that concerns me is that there is some peening in the front shoulder of the bolt raceway. I'm wondering if this explains why the bolt is missing. The area of concern is indicated with the pencil. Sorry the pics are marginal--it's hard to get the light right so you can see what I am talking about. So anyway--I have a line on a couple Standard Products bolts for him, with various parts numbers on the lug, and I was wondering if anyone could advise me as to what number range I should be looking for. The carbine serial number is in the 2,181,*** range, and the date on the barrel is 1/44. Thank you in advance for any information you could share. All the best. |
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shadycon
On Point Joined: Mar 16 2016 Location: NRV, Va. Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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Could this be the results of a bolt failure?
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M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!! |
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DonFlynn
Grunt Joined: Jan 27 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 581 |
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That's the thought I had on the forum in question (ar15.com). The only bolt failure I have any experience with is a friends new production "Inland", the A/O parts clones that the bolt is prone to failure on. The damage reminded me of that. My friend got a new receiver/rifle since it was under warranty. I'm hoping someone here with more experience with WWII USGI Carbines can say if that damage is critical enough to scrap the receiver. |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Probably have to put a bolt in it to see if the damaged area will interfere. If all else looks good with the receiver (cracks, burrs, warps...etc.) it may be fine after the damage is polished out.
I’d also like to ask....is that AMCO band a cut-down T3, or did AMCO manufacture a T2?
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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S bolts in with the following numbers have been reported in that serial range6,22,36,42,40,51,
including 39,44,49, but these last 3 have been reported with a "pointer or more rounded" front lug which I suspect is more appropriate considering the barrel date Did you get the trigger marking? Please consider submitting a data sheet.
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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1) Hello DonFlynn--thanks for recommending this board. Much appreciated.
2) FloydTheCat--if your question is directed at me, I have absolutely no clue (lol). I know next to nothing about the carbine, I'm a Garand guy. I would be happy to take more pictures of the barrel band from different angles if anyone is interested in seeing them/exploring the question. Just tell me what the areas of interest are, and I'll get you some pics. New2Brass--Thank you for the information. I definitely will ask the owner if he'd be willing to let me fill out a data sheet. I'd guess it would tickle him pink. I just need to find a tutorial about how to take down the trigger group. Maybe I'll bring my laptop over and show him this thread. I don't think he's ever been on the internet. His wife was asking me to show her how to use Google (lol). Great folks. All the best, Gentlemen. |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2958 |
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Here is a you tube video on Trigger Housing disassembly and assembly.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Thank you, sir. I'll check it out. ETA: Wow. Just watched it--great video |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2958 |
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@Eight_Ring here is the link to the" how to videos" posted in this forum.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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8Ring,
Welcome... Did he mention when, where, how he got it ? Any sign of damage inside the Op Slide's cam cut.... where it meets the bolts right lug? The receivers left inner rail Will need the burrs dressed up. Problems on that rail can cause a bolt to hang up. Often times causing the right lug to crack. Curious if the Butt plate is marked ss3? Is the pencil pointing out lead build up? Charlie-Painter777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Painter777--the butt plate is indeed marked S-S3.
No such luck that the peening is a lead build-up. There is a distinct, hard burr. On a happy note, the camming lug recess in the operating rod looks pristine. Here are more pics for background. I tired to show the facets of the burr by altering the light source and changing angle. Sorry if the redundancy is tedious. One of the members here was kind enough to share relevant information from a newsletter which documents 2 different serial numbers which bracket this particular carbine, and their corresponding/sequential bolt lot numbers. Which is awesome information to have, but which brought me to an ethical dilemma/decision fork which I'm sure many of you have faced. I'm wrestling with the ethics of "correcting" a rifle that is not in fact "correct". Why not just buy a NOS postwar Underwood bolt? It is arguably a safer design, and has some valid engineering improvements. It's what any GI armorer would have done to repair the rifle--and it avoids mischief (intentional or unintentional) inre: misleading collectors. I'm not sure the old-timer would know the difference--or even care, really. He'd just be happy to have the carbine running again. It is an interesting conundrum. |
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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On closer inspection the AMCO band appears to have rougher machining marks on the muzzle side, and is most likely a band with a bayonet lug which has been sawed off and reparkerized. |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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It’s a dilemma frequently encountered. Just the bolt won’t correct that carbine. A barrel-band (at least) would be needed. I would clean-up the damage and acquire a good T3 complete bolt to confirm the function. A complete round bolt can usually be had in the $100 range and you can always resell it for what you paid for it. One can always be "looking" for the correct bolt. The carbine will never be correct...only corrected, if one did acquire the correct bolt and barrel-band as well as any other components needed to be deemed correct. I'd see if I could fix it first and then consider correcting it. It's likely going back into the closet it came out of anyway.
Edited by floydthecat - Apr 11 2020 at 7:08am |
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shadycon
On Point Joined: Mar 16 2016 Location: NRV, Va. Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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It would be nice if the bolt could be found and see what damage it has...............
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M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!! |
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I spoke with his nephew, and he is going to poke around a bit, see if he can turn it up. There is some age-related decline in the gentlemen's faculties, and that complicates things. His elderly wife is also scandalized by the notion of gun ownership, so he kind of kept it all on the down low, out of sight out of mind, if you know what I mean. My guess is that the bolt is set aside with the mags, ammo, and cleaning kit--wherever that all got off to. Maybe the house in Vermont. I'll hold off on buying a bolt until they're pretty sure it is a lost cause. Looking forward (and assuming the worst)--what is a good source for shooter-grade mags? Everybody seems to be offering pristine new-in-wrap mags for $30 a pop--surely there are some rangeworthy/dependable 50%-75% finish mags out there (someplace) for a reasonable price? |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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I’m still trying to figure out just how that happened. Looks like it was purposely done with a punch from the rear, but one would need to have been there to see whatever happened at the time I suppose.
The $15 Korean mags often found on places like Sarco or even e-bay are good to go. No use in purchasing collector mags for shooting.
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I know what you are saying--I am having a hard time visualizing how the left lug could have been the leading point of the impact forces--but I don't know the carbine. Wouldn't the bolt face have galled before the lug recess? Inre: mags--unfortunately MA is a ban state, and mags must have been made before 1994, which only leaves USGI as the alternative. $60 for 2 mags isn't going to break the bank--but it would be nicer if it was for 4 mags (lol). |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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It's not unethical to correct a M1 carbine, unless one's purpose is to deceive another individual to the history of a certain carbine. In your case, I would not do anything, other than make sure your SP is safe to shoot and do so at your pleasure.
Do not worry about the correct numbered SP bolt! It's not going to make you SP original again, plus you may have to pay more than you have to for it. |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Ahhhh...the dreaded communist state syndrome.
Forces on the lugs under fire would be exerted rearward and upward, just like a Garand or M14. Whatever caused that damage seems to have been exerted from the rear, but when a bolt blows, strange things can occur. I can’t recreate in my mind (as small as it is) just how that happened. I suppose if the left lug broke as the bolt continued to rotate, it could have forced a fragment down into the left lug-recess?
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Eight_Ring
Recruit Joined: Apr 08 2020 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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I run into this with Garands. Sometimes you feel like the Garand owns you. I enjoy the liberty of dealing with $600 mix-masters because I can crown a barrel or swap the bolt to get a tighter chamber and swap out the original stock for match-fitted wood for the purpose of accuracy--and do whatever else adds to the function and accuracy of the rifle. I much prefer to deal with things from a perspective of utility--what it actually does--and spend my efforts into making it be the best thing it can be without the other constraints. That being said, historicity has some charms--though I guess I'd leave that to the rich folks (lol). |
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