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Reloading tips: primer problem?

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patrickduis View Drop Down
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    Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 8:19am
I always dreamed of reloading but found the money involved with buying all equipment a bit too high. Just a few weeks ago I could buy used equipment from an elder shooter that has to stop reloading because of his deteriorating health. This is the guy that trained me in shooting well.

Last week I finally got a die set for the .30m1, together with a factory crimp. All dies are lee.
After trying out 5 rounds with 13grs v-N110 with 110grs FMJ bullets, PRVI cases (from factory ammo I fired myself) and S&B small rifle primers, all cycled well and I got 1 misfire (but there was a dent in the primer).

I decided to load 25 more, now with 12.5grs v-N110 (which was the most accurate according to the lee roloading manual) all cycled well again, but I had 2 misfires with a dent in the primer.

After dissasambling the misfired cartridges I noticed nothing special. But during reloading I noticed that the S&B primers were going in quite deep (1/100mm too deep according to my feelding) than normal. There are just not 100% perfectly flush at the end.
But then again.....the .30 carbine headspaces on the rim of the cartridge, right?

The accuracy was way better than before with PRVI ammo, this gets me with 10 rounds standing/10 kneeling at 25m to approx. 193 maximum......but last mondayevening I shot 197 out of 200 with the reloaded cartridges, so the accuracy is way better......only need to sort out the misfire problem.

I checked the firing pin and it looks ok to me. All is very clean (I clean my carbine after every 25 rounds). I also never got any misfire using PRVI factory ammo (where I re-use the cases from).

Another shooter is also using PRVI cases, but he uses Federal primers.

I checked the length of all cases before the reloading and all were fine. 

What can cause the misfires?
- Case slightly too short (on the minimum verge........) because it headspaces on case rim
- S&B primer is slightly less thick than federal primer?
- Problem with Lee safety prime tool that seats the primers too deeply? Is it maybe a better idea to seat using the primer seating tool on my Lee turret press?

I'm already very happy with the much improved accuracy..........but any tips on solving the misfire problem are very welcome.

Any other tips involved with reloading for the .30m1 carbine for accuracy are welcome. I wish to reload for accuracy.

Greetings from Holland
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 9:03am
Since they are getting struck there's a slight chance it could be a bad batch of primers.  Did you buy them new or did they come with the reloading equipment?

However you said it looked like they were sitting a little deep in the pocket.  This could be a light strike. I Googled around and found the following SAAMI table for primer and primer pocket tolerances.  You may want to check this out if you have a gauge that can measure to this readability.   Could be dimensions are off for either the primers and/or brass.  Good luck.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 9:21am
I bought the primers new in a large box with the smaller ones inside. Bought those from S&B because those were cheaper. European stuff is cheaper here in Holland than reloading items from the US, same with the Vihtavuori powder.

Thanks for these tables, didn't knew they existed. I'm going to measure this with my calipers. Can also be a combination of a bad batch of cases with a bad batch of primers with an old worn-out firing pin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 9:55am
Here in the U.S., S&B are not really liked, seem to be inconsistent. Think for sure the brass is not a problem, the primers from Russia If you can get are not a bad primer. Have tried them all I think with S&B at the bottom of the chart IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 9:58am
Hmmm............that maybe explains why the S&B primers are the cheapest.........going to contact my gunshop where I bought them so I can maybe trade them for something better.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 10:37am
I have one carbine with the opposite problem. Darn near perforates primers. I'm considering shortening the hammer spring a tad. The combination of a known-questionable primer (S&B) and the fact they are installed deep in the pocket is not a good combination. Pictures of the primers that are dented and not fired would be helpful. "Dented" is not a very objective term on it's own.
 
I've shot (and still am) ammo that I load with Wolf primers and they have never failed to go BANG. If Wolf is available where you are, I think they would be a good choice. I also interchange small rifle primers with pistol primers and have never noticed any difference in performance.
 
PS: Make sure to measure your fired cases and trim if necessary. It's not likely you would find one too short, as they grow upon firing...but you never know. Short brass could also cause ignition issues. If the extractor doesn't grab the rim and hang onto it, the round could be driven deeper into the chamber away from the bolt-face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 12:33pm
Just to clarify, going back to your original description.  You said you are using PRVI cases that you fired yourself.  You didn't mention it but I'll ask...Did you have any issues with the factory ammo?  If not then I would say the carbine is doing what it's suppose to do and the issue is with the reloads.  Any chance you still have the factory primers around that you could compare with the S&B to perhaps get a comparison or another data point? (I know I'm talking about something smaller than a gnat's rear-end but you never know.)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 2:11pm
What "trim to" length are you using? How does it compare to factory PRVI?

If your chamber is "old" (worn a little on the long side) and you are trimming to 1.280" minimum length, you might very well end up with inconsistent ignition as the carbine headspaces on the case MOUTH (not the rim).

Do you have any idea of the length of your chamber? Is your headspace good? If your bolt closes on a field gage (1.3" IRRC) you've discovered the reason why the FIELD REJECT criterion was used. Facing a bonzai charge the last thing guys want to hear is just that click, no bang. :eek:

Brownells sells a chamber length gage. Don't know if it's available in Europe but you might check and see. It's cheap (like $5 USD) and, since you are reloading, you can easily use it to determina a really neat parameter specific to YOUR gun. Essentially it's a variable length headspace gage.

HTH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 22 2017 at 6:20pm
If you haven't trimmed your cases I don't believe that they are the cause of misfires.  Brass cartridge cases tend to stretch ever so slightly with each firing.  Since they all fired new and I assume this is the first reloading I would tend to agree that it is most likely a primer issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2017 at 3:38am
Thanks for all the good info.
@Floyd: That is a very nasty problem. I still have the discharged primers and I will photograph the dents. So far they don't seem any different to me than the ones that fired.
Wolf primers: never heard of them. Going to check that at my armourer.
About the pistol primers: can you use a small pistol primer for a .30m1 round? I have pleny of those from CCI and they always go bang in my Dan Wesson 715VH4.
I measured the cases that didn't ignite. And I think 1 was just a tad too short.
@Sling: I never had any issues with PRVI ammo and I shot about a 1000 of those in this carbine. Sometimes in a while a misfeed but that is mostly causes by the used magazine (I have 2).
Therefore I also suspect the problem with the reloads.
I still have a box of PRVI ammo and I can measure the depth of the primers from those, as well al the case lengths. I can always unload a PRVI cartridge from that box.
@Blackfish: I'm using the Vihtavuori reload manual that states 32.6mm. After resizing and flaring all cases were 32.5-32.6 except one 32.7 (I threw that one away) and a 32.45 (that had the misfire). The other misfire was a 32.5 case so then it comes back at the primer.
I'm using 12.5grs v-N110 with a 110grs FMJ bullet.
I'm going to look for the Brownells chamber length gauge. Hope I can find it in NL because customs blocks all shipments coming in from outside the Netherlands. It is impossible to import anything that has anything to do with weapons around here.
I checked a few reloaded cases with my .30M1, but not all (as I always do with my Dan Wesson 715VH4 and my Tanfoglio witness 1911 custom, I just take the barrel out of the 1911).....I found it a bit dangerous to do inside the house but I will next time (check all reloaded rounds inside the .30m1 barrel) and will disassemble the .30m1 for that because of safety.
@1stM188: The cases were fired only once, so I still don't expect problems there. I also measured all the cases. I always do when reloading, I check all resized+flared cases with calipers. I started with reloading in dec. 2016, have good experience now with .38/.357 and .45acp so I still check all the resized+flared cases because of safety.
It was also the 1st thing that came to my mind when I set the primers.....wow, those go deep. I never had that while setting primers for .38/.357 (CCI small pistol primers) and .45acp (S&B large pistol primers).
I don't had any problems with the S&B large pistol primers in .45acp but after checking the setting depth of the primers they were nice and flush with the back of the case (like they should be, you must be able to run your thumb nicely over it without it feeling being out of the casing). Same goes for the .38/.357 primer setting.
It all comes back to the unexpected deep setting of the primers (but most of them still fired) in combination with a too short casing I think........

Going to measure the primers and holes in the casings as well as a new PRVI round from the box and compare that.

But, can I use (for a test) the small pistol primers for .30m1? I'm going to reload a few rounds again on monday/tuesday evening (since the shooting range is closed because of carnival).

Many thanks again for the good advice and greetings from a windy and rainy Netherlands (in a few hours a bft 10 storm is coming).




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2017 at 5:37am
Regarding the use of small pistol primers in a rifle.  Since they go to the effort to make different primers there must be a reason.  There are several discussions on this subject.  As you can expect, there are some who say never and some who say they've done it.  The general agreement is that small pistol primers are typically thinner cups and not made for higher rifle pressure.  Here's a reply from Federal in one of the discussions back in 2009:

"In order of "hotness", brisance, coldest to hottest it goes like this:
The order is the same for either large or small primers.
Standard Pistol Primers/Match Grade Primers 
Magnum Pistol Primers
Standard Rifle Primers/Match Grade Primers
Magnum Rifle Primers
"50cal" Primers
The technician also stated that the other difference is cup thickness. Not so much hardness but thickness. The thicker primers are rifle ones and they are meant to withstand the higher pressures of most rifle cartridges.  He said there are problems going either way. Light strikes with rifle primers in handguns and pierced ones in rifles with handgun ones."

With that said I would do a little more research before loading up a pistol primer.  Perhaps someone with firsthand experience will weigh in on this.

Best regards
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2017 at 5:44am
Yes, you are right. There must of course be a reason that there are small rifle primers with the same dimensions (on the outside) as small pistol primers.
But with regard of the pressures..............a small pistol primer can withstand .357 pressure and since the .30m1 round is comparable to that........
Problem is that I reload the .357 with n340 and n110 which is a completely different powder. The pressure buildup is different, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2017 at 5:58am
As an aside on your recipe, 12.5-grains of H110 is a very safe load. Has nothing much to do concerning primer ignition, but you can take that up a grain-or so and still be very comfortable. My chronograph clocks 13.5-grains with an OAL of 1.66 at 1857 FPS. 14-grains feels real good.
 
Interesting how you discovered some short fired cases, even if a tad. I may find some that have not grown measurably after firing, but never any that were short after firing and always have to trim most after multiple firings. Thinking the brass may have been short to begin with? If you don't have a brass-trimmer...U need to get one. It's essential when loading the caliber-30. The Lee Quick-Trim is a good one.
 
I don't know if the difference between SP and SR primers could be measured on a chronograph or not. I simply use what I have on hand and what's available at what price when I purchase them. I also use small magnum pistol primers on occasion, but drop the charge a little if I'm loading on the high-end of the charge-table. I can also say that CCI primers have a reputation for being some of the hardest. If you have a firing-pin contact problem, it will surely show-up using CCI primers. I do not think you're going to damage anything by the substitution of small pistol with small rifle primers...or vice-versa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 26 2017 at 8:27am

To the left the decapped primers of the misfired ones, to the right a correctly fired one. Seems more or less logical.

Yeah, I started out not too high because the Vihtavuori reloading manual stated 12.1grs as a starting load. To prevent misfeeds I put it a little higher but stil got a few. I also tried 5 with 13grs v-N110 that cycled well. Another shooter in our club (my main opponent in the .30m1 match) uses also the PRVI cases with 13grs ramshot enforcer.
I'm going to reload the next rounds with a bit more, 13.5grs and see if the cycling improves.

This weekend is carnival so all's very quiet here (range also closed the next days). So plenty of time figuring things out. Did a lot of measuring and inspected the hit in the primers. Seems that the misfires had the pin not protruding so much as with the ones that fired well. What I also found out, is that the cases (after resizing+flaring) measure a tad low: the misfired ones measured both 32.50mm and a good one 32.55mm.
I also found that the primer pocket of the prvi cases that misfired err on towards the max depth: 3.05 and 3.10mm. And the S&B primers measure 3.05/3.10.
I also found that setting the primers with the Lee safety prime pushes them a little bit deeper than when I set them on the Lee turret press.

I have a case length cutter (RCBS) but I'm not sure yet if I have the right collet (have one for .308, need to check).

Here are some measurements:

Cases specification of various manuals: 
Vihtavuori: TTL 32.50mm
Speer TTL=32.51 max 32.77mm
Speer online TTL 32.64 max 32.77mm
Hornady TTL 32.51max 32.77mm
Lyman TTL 32.66 max 32.77mm
Lee  TTL ? Max 32.77mm

Measurements
Misfired 1: 32.50mm
Misfired 2: 32.50mm
Fired ok: 32.55mm

Small rifle primers specification
Diameter 4.44-4.48mm Height 2.92-3.18mm

Misfired primer 1: diameter 4.45mm height 3.05mm
Misfired primer 2: diameter 4.45mm height 3.10mm
New S&B primet: diameter 4.45mm height 3.05mm

Small rifle pocket specification
Diameter 4.39-4.43mm height 2.97-3.12mm

Misfired case 1: diameter 4.40 height 3.05mm
Misfired case 2: diameter 4.40 height 3.10mm

So things I will change for the next batch of 50 rounds I'm going to make:
Change the v-N110 12.5grs charge into 13.5grs
Set the primers with the Lee turret press iso the Lee safety prime and check very well they are flush at the back. No too deep seating.
Check case lengths very well and omit those ones that err towards the minimum size:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 26 2017 at 9:34am
You have a primer issue, in my opinion. It looks like they should fire with that much of strike. You may also have some brass that is sightly shorter to begin with than it should be, which could contribute to the problem. I would switch primers, and measure your brass.

I began reloading in 1984 for my M1 Carbine, and also used a Lee Turret Press. At that time, the only brass I had was WWII USGI, and Remington. I never experienced a misfire, but I did have to monitor the primer tool on the Lee Turret Press to make sure that primers were fully seated. I found that I needed to clean out the primer pockets on USGI brass after initial firing. Of course, most folks are probably not firing WWII era ammo nowadays, but I shot what was available at the time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickduis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 26 2017 at 10:40am
I always clean out the primer pockets since they have a bit of black residue inside. After that they are clean and you see shiny brass inside the pocket.
Is it maybe an idea to stop doing this cleaning so I get the primers so seat slightly less deeper?

I'm going to check each primer seating carefully after I seated them with the Lee turret press.

Does any of you use PRVI cases? I would like to know which small rifle primers you are using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 26 2017 at 1:05pm
Are all three of the primers posted in the picture the same brand? If so, did they come from the same lot? Judging from the picture, I'd agree that they all should have ignited.
 
I am reloading just about everything...except a PRVI, but only because I don't have any. Primers....I use Winchester WSP, TulAmmo KVB-223 SRP and on occasion Winchester WSPM (small pistol magnum) and back the charge down a couple of 10ths. I pretty much will shoot what I have, but have always avoided CCI due to their hardness reputation. I simply don't trust a progressive press for some things and use a  hand-primer for most of my work. I am a one-at-a-time guy and I like it that way.
 
I discovered early on that the carbine likes loads on the strong end of the scale. Light loads will cause ejection problems in either of my two carbines. I have chased action and spring issues that simply turned out to be ammo issues. 
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Yes, maybe a slightly hotter load can solve the feeding problems I have. I'm going to try that out.

All 3 primers are S&B small rifle, out of the same box. I also sent this picturer to my armourer, a very fanatic reloader, to see what he has to say. 

I used CCI small pistol without any problems so far with .357/.38 loads.

I also don't like this all at once without checking loading. I do all steps batch wise on the press. So 10x decap+resize, then flare+check if bullet seats, clean primer pocket+check case length.
After I've done that for the amount of cartridges I want to make I seat the primers in all of them. I use the Lee handprimer since that gives you a nice feel on how the primer is seated.
Then I put the charge in and since I'm quite new to reloading I measure all charges.
Then I inspect the level of charge visually for all loaded ones on the holder plate.
Then I seat bullets and crimp then with the factory crimp.

Al batchwise, so check, check check & double check. I've seen guys on youtube using Dillon presses that cranks out ammo at godspeed..........just to find out there is a seating problem afterwards and then you need to disassemble hundreds of rounds......No, I like to take it slow because in my opinion that will give more repetitive results and that is the main reason I started reloading. I want to reload for accuracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 27 2017 at 11:19am
I will first say that I am not a big reloader. I have never reloaded for the M1Carbine. So please take the following with a grain of salt.
One thing I was told or read was to avoid factory crimp on .30 Carbine. The reason being is that if not done absolutely correct the case can slip past chamber effectively negating headspace.
 
I wonder if the force of the firing pin striking primer would have enough inertia to drive the case forward of the chamber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 27 2017 at 12:31pm
The SAAMI spec. on the diameter at the case mouth after crimping is like .336. The quality of the brass and the diameter of the projectile, as well as the crimping force will determine what this is after crimping. I routinely arrive at a figure of .334 using a FCD and have never had an issue.
 
In any case with any caliber that head-spaces on the case mouth, it should only be crimped enough to remove the bell resulting after case expansion (expander die). A FCD will "size" the round and generally remove the bell. Case crimping should not even be needed as case-tension retains the projectile, or is suppose to. All one wants to do is press the mouth back against the projectile. I just take mine thru the FCD and "bump" it a tad....then measure now-n-then to make sure I'm not over-crimping.
 
I would say that overzealous crimping could cause the round to creep.
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