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Rebuilt Stock on an Original Inland

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jakebev View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rebuilt Stock on an Original Inland
    Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 1:08pm
Hello everyone,

I'm new here, and I had a question about a carbine I recently picked up. It is what appears to be an original Inland, in a rebuilt stock. Does anybody have any ideas how this would happen? Sorry, these pics aren't the best quality. I hope to upload some better ones later. Also, I've now given the dry stock a coat of Pure Dark Tung Oil.

I've had the gun apart. It's got an Inland trigger guard, Inland slide, nN14 bolt, S marked flip sight (no stake marks), and I haven't looked into much else. Also, the finish is gone off of almost all of the metal parts--so the "patina" matches. The writing on the barrel isn't even legible, except for parts of the Inland Division markings. And it has an unmarked type 1 barrel band, missing the sling swivel. 

So again, any idea how a ROUGH original carbine would get in an Augusta Arsenal Refurb stock?

Thank you in advance for your educated guesses!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 1:38pm
No sure way to tell how that stock ended up on that carbine, maybe the original stock was broken and the previous owner replaced it? You mention the N14 (national postal meter) bolt which would not be expected on an original inland, how about the other small parts, (hammer, sear, trigger) how are they marked, any other markings on your rear sight or on the back of the leaf? Serial # range?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 4:13pm
The other small parts in the trigger group are all Inland coded as far as I can see without disassembling the group. The hammer is a type 3 (not M2 hammer) with an Inland code. The serial is 30793xx, so late 43 production. The barrel appears to be marked 10-43, but the 10 is up for debate--it's too faint. No other markings on the rear sight except for the S.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 7:33pm
Looks like whoever lost the sling swivel on the barrel band also replaced the original screw, and added a nut on the bottom. Original barrel band screws have a unique concave head. Page down on the below link for more info and pictures.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/barrelparts.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 9:03pm
Hi and welcome to the Collectors Forum from New Mexico!

Your stock is obviously not original. It looks like a Robert W. Irwin stock often used as a wartime or post war replacement. Your assessment that the carbine hasn't actually been through a arsenal upgrade is obviously correct. Like Wayne has suggested, the stock was replaced by a previous owner or even possibly during wartime. More can be determined by a detailed inventory of the parts inside and more pictures. It's possible that this carbine was issued to a MAP or Lend Lease country during WW2 and never went through a U.S. arsenal upgrade. Perhaps it was later returned to the U.S. (pre 1968) through private importers or maybe later through the DCM or CMP. You can read more about this here:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html

Are there any markings in the sling well of the stock?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 10:29pm
BR-B is IBM I think. It does have a P in the grip, even though I don't have a picture of that here.

Also, great observation on the band screw not being original. Hadn't noticed that.

I wish I had taken more pics when I had it apart. For some reason I was in a rush to put it back together. I'm going to take it to shoot this weekend, but I will take it apart again afterwards and get some better pictures of the trigger group. I will detail strip the trigger group, even though I haven't done it before. I do know those hammer springs are a pain in the butt to reinstall though. I have done that before... 

What is a Robert W. Irwin stock? And how would a wartime replacement stock have AAY (Augusta Arsenal?) marks on it?

Good point about a pre 1968 import. Hadn't thought of that one. But I guess I should go over it with a fine tooth comb to make sure there isn't a tiny import mark somewhere. (I saw a tiny CAI import mark on a Victory model once that I thought was a scratch.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2019 at 11:05pm
The Irwin stocks often have a distinctive shape around the recoil plate. I noticed that characteristic in your stock thinking it was the more common Irwin stock. I guess Milton Bradley stocks, which are not often seen, also have that characteristic. Here's a picture of what I thought I saw. Notice how the radius of the stock around the recoil plate doesn't match the radius of the recoil plate? Does your stock look like this?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 12:42pm
IBM did not use a P on the grip. Those that did use the P had a specific P in a specific location.
Some rebuild program used various P proofs.

A picture would help but I would bet it is a rebuild P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 2:15pm
New2brass: Yes, the stock is rebuild marked. It has AAY on the left side of the stock, as well as a proof P in the grip. And of course the IBM marking in the slingwell.

JackP: Yes, my stock looks like what you have pictured.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 2:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 3:30pm
Thanks for posting the picture of the recoil plate area. I don't get to see Bradley stocks often. I will add the pictures to my image library. Even though the stock is not original to your carbine, it is fairly rare and may be more valuable than a typical Type 2 or 3 Inland stock. Hang on to it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 10:05pm
Yeah, I don't think I'll be getting rid of the stock. Next week I'll try to break the gun down and get us some better information on all of the parts. Thanks for the info about its rarity though. I would have never known.

Just to clarify what was said earlier, there is no way the AAY refurb marked stock was put on during the war, correct? So it would have been put on post war?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 10:26pm
AAY is Agusta Arsenal with the Y being an inspectors initial. Haven't seen too many Ys or know who that was. Post-war rebuild program.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 10:37pm
You are correct. The stateside arsenal rebuild program didn't really start until sometime after the war was over. The technical manual that the arsenals used as their guide wasn't issued until 1947. Also, some rebuild activity occurred after the Korean war as well. There's more detail described here:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/postwar.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2019 at 11:51pm
Thanks for the input guys! Going to shoot it tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2019 at 5:42pm
I shot the carbine today. Still don't have any more pics, and haven't done the detail strip yet. I only had time to shoot 10 rounds for function, and it ran well. Also, the 150 yard zero on the flip sight definitely shoots a little high at 35 yards--to be expected.

One thing I forgot to mention is that this gun has a swaged gas cylinder. It's the first time I've ever had a carbine barrel that I noticed was swaged. 

Is it normal for a swaged cylinder to wiggle a little bit? This one does, but like I said, it shot fine.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2019 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by jakebev jakebev wrote:

Is it normal for a swaged cylinder to wiggle a little bit? This one does, but like I said, it shot fine.


Don't think it should wiggle, it should be tightly swaged to the barrel. If it is loose gas can leak around the barrel and could eventually cause something to crack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2019 at 6:54pm
A swaged gas cylinder should not have any play or wiggle. I have never run across one that moved, or remember reading of one like that through many years on different forums. The nut can be loose... But I think you are referring to the cylinder itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2019 at 11:10pm
Yes, I am referring to the cylinder itself, not the piston or nut. I will break the gun down and find a way to take pictures of the movement. It is not a significant amount. This conundrum may merit starting a separate thread in the maintenance forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakebev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2019 at 11:21am
I posted in the maintenance forum about the loose gas cylinder.

For those who are interested, the trigger group is all Inland marked too. So the only non inland parts are the stock and the bolt (and the hardware store screw in the band). 

Also a point of interest, the muzzle is SLANTED. Looks like somebody frequently used the muzzle as a cane whenever they were getting in and out of a truck bed.


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