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Rear flip sight. Someone said this wasn't USGI? |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Posted: Jan 26 2019 at 5:26pm |
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I just looked at a posting on the CMP For Sale forum wherein a seller was told his rear sight and stock cartouche are't USGI. The cartouche I see, can someone inform me on the serif S rear sight please? Sight is a little over half way down. Look at the 3rd pic which looks like a L on the back of the leaf peep. https://imgur.com/a/iyjorwR
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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I saw that and was gonna reach out to my "Sight Guy" to hear what he had to say about that flip.
I too saw the "L" on the leaf and wondered if just an aberration. Then I saw the page of Larsony book and it clearly states "L" type sight |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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I've been wondering where "L" sight came from. Honestly I was pretending I knew all along.
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cali201
Grunt Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 198 |
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regardless of the sight's origin it is clear there was an adjustable sight on it at one time by the stake marks.
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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But his quote is this: I have just been informed from another member that the rear sight is a reproduction...
If someone told him his sight isn't original to the Carbine and he misunderstood, that's definitely different than the way he phrased his statement, but it looks as though that isn't the case. One of the challenges of the CMP forum is the inexperienced members being mislead and even defrauded by more experienced members. That happens there because they wouldn't be able to get away with it on more advanced sites. Some people still get exposed over there but some don't. In this case his Carbine isn't original but he or the person who informed him would have to say if he was told his sight is a reproduction. It's still a pretty clean example of a Carbine. I like it.
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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My vote is the rear sight is a repop and staking overload for sure. See a few other things that might not be correct. The band marking, for example, doesn't look right to me, but I've only seen a few real ones.
Kudos to the seller for either pulling the listing or selling it for what it is. The tough part is going through the rest of it to determine other signs of correction like the trigger housing rail for example. Kudos also to the person who let the seller know. Would like to see that happen more often as we were all new once. Integrity is free. |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Yeah, the sight was replaced. You're a good sport, however...I'd buy that sight if a chance was offered. The seller appears to have good integrity. People trying to hide repop sights will commonly slather them with grease to try to hide "tells" and make it appear aged were patina isn't present. Look at those Carbines and you'll often see the only greased up parts will be the fake ones. Everything else will be clean. In that case, they probably knew it. I'm no good at bands. But I wonder who told him his sight was repop?
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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AFAIK the only (uncoded) serif S base was used by Inland early on. QHMC did receive rear sight bases from Inland in early 43.
The L is interesting. In my Odd Markings article, I show an odd placed L on a front sight on an original Winchester. (never say never!) QHMC seems to have gotten bases and leafs separate and assembled in house. Has an L marked leaf ever been observed? The sight pin staking looks correct for QHMC. The elephant in the room is what looks like an adjustable stake marks on the dovetail and the crossed cannons which are clearly not QHMC. Is it me or do the crater stake marks on the rear dovetail look too close together? With that, can anyone say with certainty that the sight in question is real or repro? Edit clarification
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Yes, but not on a carbine, the placement of the L on that leaf reminds me of the flip sight on an M16a1, with the L on the taller leaf facing the shooter to signify that the Long Range sight is up. Could that be the case with this sight? |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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It's real. And IBM coded sights were also marked with a serif S. The elephant in the room is the person who told him it's a reproduction. |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Thanks for the confirmation Dr. Flip. I'm 0 for 1 in 2019. Have added it to my library for further evaluation.
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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It could be an incorrect interpretation by the seller of what the person said to the seller. For instance, they may have told the seller "The sight is not original to the rifle," which may have been interpreted by the seller as the sight is a reproduction. Or, the person told him it's a reproduction, and is wrong. I think it's an original sight, just not to this rifle. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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Very Interesting, Note taken!
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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The ad seems to have been pulled so I can only say in our message that the word fake was used. Also, the seller was freaked that he almost sold an item where he was told two items were phony.
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Oh, that's right, you PMed him. Wish I had as nice of an example of a serif S flip.
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Logman
Recruit Joined: Jan 10 2019 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Folks, this is my first post and thank you for allowing me to join this forum, I sincerely hope that my first post and thus this reply doesn’t wear out my welcome. I own this carbine in question, I am a Garand guy but love the carbine. My experience regarding the carbine is novice +, being that all I know is what I have read in books, etc. far from being an expert. I purchased this carbine from a local gun store some time back, it’s been in the safe ever since. I honestly listed the carbine for the reason I said, I thinning my collection (getting old, etc). I pride myself in Honesty and Integrity, that is why I spoke about the front band and the sight and included the several photos. I was informed thereafter that the stock stamp “was not genuine” and that the rear sight was a “repro”. I was not aware of that when posting though I did say I was bit puzzled about the sight because I couldn’t confirm, that’s why I said “you be the judge”. After being informed about this I choose to delisted because back to my comment about integrity, I don’t want to be the guy selling fakes or being known as a guy who sells fakes, I wouldn’t want that done to me. YES, integrity is free, at the end that’s all we all have. I would be happy share any further information regarding the carbine for further thoughts. Sincerely
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Welcome and I hope you aren't perturbed that I used your sight as a topic of discussion and learning. Rear sights and stock stampings (like with Garands) are some of the hottest parts discussions in the Carbine world. If there weren't reproductions it would be easy for us.
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Logman, welcome to the forum. Your carbine's rear sight was an excellent topic of discussion on this forum and something that many of us gained knowledge from. Best of all in the end you can rest assured that the sight is real usgi even though it may not be original to your carbine.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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Logman, good to see you are here as well!
The consensus seems to be that your sight, though not original to the carbine, is, in fact, a real sight. I for one would like to see a better picture of the L on the tall leaf (assuming it is an actual mark) If you need any help posting pictures just click the link in my signature. You can also email any pictures and I can size and install in your folder as well as insert them into your post if you like. Best, Dan
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Logman, Welcome.
When I first started, I sold a trigger housing that I thought was in original condition. The buyer noticed it had been cut for M2 use. I offered to fix the situation including a full refund and me paying for return shipping. We worked it out, everyone was happy and I learned from the experience. I voted for a repop flip, but Dr. Flip Sight (tenocee) knows way more than me about flips. Now I have learned and added this knowledge to my library. Integrity to me is not just telling the truth but seeking it out when it is unknown. Kudos to you. If possible, I’d like to see a picture looking down on the trigger housing with the hammer cocked. Also I will dig up a pic of what I think is a real Rock-Ola band and and we can compare. Who knows maybe the picture I have is wrong. Let the dective work begin. Always room to learn. |
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