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Rear flip sight. Someone said this wasn't USGI?

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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rear flip sight. Someone said this wasn't USGI?
    Posted: Jan 26 2019 at 5:26pm
I just looked at a posting on the CMP For Sale forum wherein a seller was told his rear sight and stock cartouche are't USGI. The cartouche I see, can someone inform me on the serif S rear sight please? Wink
Sight is a little over half way down. Look at the 3rd pic which looks like a L on the back of the leaf peep.
https://imgur.com/a/iyjorwR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2019 at 6:46pm
I saw that and was gonna reach out to my "Sight Guy" to hear what he had to say about that flip.
I too saw the "L" on the leaf and wondered if just an aberration.  Then I saw the page of Larsony book and it clearly states "L" type sight LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2019 at 7:04pm
I've been wondering where "L" sight came from. Honestly I was pretending I knew all along. Geek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cali201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 7:08am
regardless of the sight's origin it is clear there was an adjustable sight on it at one time by the stake marks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 7:33am
But his quote is this: I have just been informed from another member that the rear sight is a reproduction...

If someone told him his sight isn't original to the Carbine and he misunderstood, that's definitely different than the way he phrased his statement, but it looks as though that isn't the case. One of the challenges of the CMP forum is the inexperienced members being mislead and even defrauded by more experienced members. That happens there because they wouldn't be able to get away with it on more advanced sites. Some people still get exposed over there but some don't.

In this case his Carbine isn't original but he or the person who informed him would have to say if he was told his sight is a reproduction. It's still a pretty clean example of a Carbine. I like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 8:56am
My vote is the rear sight is a repop and staking overload for sure. See a few other things that might not be correct. The band marking, for example, doesn't look right to me, but I've only seen a few real ones.

Kudos to the seller for either pulling the listing or selling it for what it is. The tough part is going through the rest of it to determine other signs of correction like the trigger housing rail for example. Kudos also to the person who let the seller know. Would like to see that happen more often as we were all new once.

Integrity is free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 9:43am
Yeah, the sight was replaced. You're a good sport, however...I'd buy that sight if a chance was offered. Beer

The seller appears to have good integrity. People trying to hide repop sights will commonly slather them with grease to try to hide "tells" and make it appear aged were patina isn't present. Look at those Carbines and you'll often see the only greased up parts will be the fake ones. Everything else will be clean. In that case, they probably knew it.

I'm no good at bands. But I wonder who told him his sight was repop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 9:59am
AFAIK the only (uncoded) serif S base was used by Inland early on. QHMC did receive rear sight bases from Inland in early 43. 

The L is interesting. In my Odd Markings article, I show an odd placed L on a front sight on an original Winchester. (never say never!)
QHMC seems to have gotten bases and leafs separate and assembled in house. Has an L marked leaf ever been observed?
 The sight pin staking looks correct for QHMC.

The elephant in the room is what looks like an adjustable stake marks on the dovetail and the crossed cannons which are clearly not QHMC.  Is it me or do the crater stake marks on the rear dovetail look too close together?

With that, can anyone say with certainty that the sight in question is real or repro?

Edit clarification 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 10:10am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Has an L marked leaf ever been observed?


Yes, but not on a carbine, the placement of the L on that leaf reminds me of the flip sight on an M16a1, with the L on the taller leaf facing the shooter to signify that the Long Range sight is up. Could that be the case with this sight?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 10:15am
It's real.
And IBM coded sights were also marked with a serif S.
The elephant in the room is the person who told him it's a reproduction.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 12:08pm
Thanks for the confirmation Dr. Flip. I'm 0 for 1 in 2019. Have added it to my library for further evaluation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

It's real.
And IBM coded sights were also marked with a serif S.
The elephant in the room is the person who told him it's a reproduction.






It could be an incorrect interpretation by the seller of what the person said to the seller. For instance, they may have told the seller "The sight is not original to the rifle," which may have been interpreted by the seller as the sight is a reproduction. Or, the person told him it's a reproduction, and is wrong.

I think it's an original sight, just not to this rifle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Has an L marked leaf ever been observed?


Yes, but not on a carbine, the placement of the L on that leaf reminds me of the flip sight on an M16a1, with the L on the taller leaf facing the shooter to signify that the Long Range sight is up. Could that be the case with this sight?

Very Interesting, Note taken!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 1:49pm
The ad seems to have been pulled so I can only say in our message that the word fake was used. Also, the seller was freaked that he almost sold an item where he was told two items were phony.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 5:21pm
Oh, that's right, you PMed him. Wish I had as nice of an example of a serif S flip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 6:46pm
Folks, this is my first post and thank you for allowing me to join this forum, I sincerely hope that my first post and thus this reply doesn’t wear out my welcome. I own this carbine in question, I am a Garand guy but love the carbine. My experience regarding the carbine is novice +, being that all I know is what I have read in books, etc. far from being an expert. I purchased this carbine from a local gun store some time back, it’s been in the safe ever since. I honestly listed the carbine for the reason I said, I thinning my collection (getting old, etc). I pride myself in Honesty and Integrity, that is why I spoke about the front band and the sight and included the several photos. I was informed thereafter that the stock stamp “was not genuine” and that the rear sight was a “repro”. I was not aware of that when posting though I did say I was bit puzzled about the sight because I couldn’t confirm, that’s why I said “you be the judge”. After being informed about this I choose to delisted because back to my comment about integrity, I don’t want to be the guy selling fakes or being known as a guy who sells fakes, I wouldn’t want that done to me. YES, integrity is free, at the end that’s all we all have. I would be happy share any further information regarding the carbine for further thoughts. Sincerely
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 6:53pm
Welcome and I hope you aren't perturbed that I used your sight as a topic of discussion and learning. Rear sights and stock stampings (like with Garands) are some of the hottest parts discussions in the Carbine world. If there weren't reproductions it would be easy for us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 7:07pm
Logman, welcome to the forum. Your carbine's rear sight was an excellent topic of discussion on this forum and something that many of us gained knowledge from. Best of all in the end you can rest assured that the sight is real usgi even though it may not be original to your carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 7:08pm
Logman, good to see you are here as well!
The consensus seems to be that your sight, though not original to the carbine, is, in fact, a real sight.

I for one would like to see a better picture of the L on the tall leaf (assuming it is an actual mark)
If you need any help posting pictures just click the link in my signature. You can also email any pictures and I can size and install in your folder as well as insert them into your post if you like.
Best, Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2019 at 7:27pm
Logman, Welcome.

When I first started, I sold a trigger housing that I thought was in original condition. The buyer noticed it had been cut for M2 use. I offered to fix the situation including a full refund and me paying for return shipping. We worked it out, everyone was happy and I learned from the experience.

I voted for a repop flip, but Dr. Flip Sight (tenocee) knows way more than me about flips. Now I have learned and added this knowledge to my library.

Integrity to me is not just telling the truth but seeking it out when it is unknown. Kudos to you.

If possible, I’d like to see a picture looking down on the trigger housing with the hammer cocked.

Also I will dig up a pic of what I think is a real Rock-Ola band and and we can compare. Who knows maybe the picture I have is wrong.

Let the dective work begin. Always room to learn.
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