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35 Whelen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 9:43am
Thanks for posting more targets!

  Your targets state that fired the groups prone, unsupported. If you're a right handed shooter a good tight sling used as it would be in High Power could very well move your POI to the left. Just a little food for thought.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 11:03am
I'll have to try that and/or shoot from the bench to isolate how much is me.
I'm sure having a coach would help too!

I was a little too confident (cocky?) when I got there.
My plan was to compare the IMI and then work on the other three positions needed for CMP match.
There's two clubs within reasonable distance that have CMP matches once a month.  I need to check on the sling rules and course for carbines.   Not sure if I'm quite ready for timed fire.  I think I can get the kneeling in 60 seconds but it will be very close.  Prone and sitting I'm pretty sure I need to pickup speed.  And I dont want to do that until I improve my form. 
But I could still use the sling when practicing and comparing.

With the crammed position and the loose denim shirt the butt wasn't sitting nice in my shoulder. 
The previous I used the position next to the benches with seats.   You can see my targets and extra cardboard backer under the table.  This time I was in the lane to the right (angled arrow).   But the block on that table comes further forward because there are no seats.  oops.


Here's my other three targets for the day.
Both kneeling and sitting I took a little time on the first few shots and then tried to shoot quickly including a quick magazine change.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 11:50am
I'd suggest you find a local High Power match and someone to mentor you. I shot our local High Power matches for a year and a half or so, on a couple of different occasions. The second time I did it I paid closer attention and learned a lot from a couple of the competitors. Cheek weld, sight picture, trigger control, breathing, natural point of aim and follow-through are just some of the critically important things one must do to shoot well. For me, natural point of aim and follow-through were the least understood, but were the two things that were keeping me from shooting to my best potential. Once I learned those, things came together for all of my shooting.

  Just an FYI, in a match, kneeling and sitting positions are not two separately used positions. You choose one or the other and in my very limited exposure I've never seen anyone use the kneeling position. 

  Here's a link to the rules for M1 Carbine matches (scroll down to page 28)- NM Rifle Program - Draft 2021 - Google Docs

  I would strongly suggest, if possible, you learn and polish the basic principles of shooting from a bench. Once you're shooting nice groups from a bench, THEN start working shooting offhand, sitting and prone. I helped coach our 4-H smallbore team and it wasn't practical to start the green shooters off at the bench, so we'd start them shooting prone, but still the shooter must learn how to shoot from prone and the principles of marksmanship at the same time.

   Here's a link to a pretty good guide on service rifle marksmanship- SR SHOOTING GUIDE.PDF (nfga.org)

 Your 100 yd. targets really aren't bad at all, keep it up!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 01 2021 at 9:46pm
Thanks!
I have the Canadian and US Army books downloaded as well.  I actually found the Canadian one (Shoot to Live) illustrating the "Johnson method" a little more helpful.  But its almost entirely focused on firing prone.

Sling rule for M1 carbines is under 5.3.2:
"In the M1 Carbine Match, the issue Carbine-type sling may only be used as a hasty sling (without arm loop, with arm wrapped around sling) in the prone, sitting or kneeling positions. In the standing position the sling, if attached, may not be used for support."
In the equipment section is states only M1 carbine slings (or copies) may be used.

I find it ironic that in general I've been shooting better in kneeling than sitting.  When I was a teenager I was pretty good in sitting but then stuggled to make my kneeling targets.  I might have used a crossed leg sitting position with the 22.  Gee. You'ld think I'd remember.  LOL  Of course the jr rifle program is all slow fire - plenty of time to get in position and take the shots, and recoil wasn't a concern. Remington 511 with peep sights or 513T


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 9:58am
Its the standing position that separates the men from the boys! Most folks score well in the prone and sitting shots. Its the standing that is difficult to master. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 10:21am
I was always told "Matches are won and lost in offhand." and I found that to be pretty much true. 

Sitting Rapid fire was usually my best position and I often scored well into the 90's with my best being a 97-2X. The SR-1 target helped a lot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 8:23pm
I scored mid to high 90s in both prone and sitting. In good years I shot low 90s standing. Good enough to take bronze medals!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 9:14pm
What's the advantage of the SR-1?   I thought the reduction in size matched the reduction in distance?
Where you guys shooting service rifles or carbines (or both)?

I've got a long way to go to get that good in off hand.  You can see my scores on the first above.  My offhand from April gnerally looks better (as do most of my targets) but cant score them as I that was before I read the rules and was shooting 14 rounds per target.

In what used to be the junior marksman program, standing was taught more like you'd expect for .22 bullseye competition.  Thats a rather different stance, not that I ever mastered it.  I took a look to find out more about the program and sadly it has apparently dwindled to hardly any participation.   :(  
My patches are labeled 50 Foot, not Junior, so I guess there were several changes in the program but it was pretty universal at the time.  I started at the NJ School of Conservation summer camp an and later continued with a local YMCA.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

What's the advantage of the SR-1?   I thought the reduction in size matched the reduction in distance?
Where you guys shooting service rifles or carbines (or both)?

I've got a long way to go to get that good in off hand.  You can see my scores on the first above.  My offhand from April gnerally looks better (as do most of my targets) but cant score them as I that was before I read the rules and was shooting 14 rounds per target.
 
  There's no advantage to the SR-1, it just has a generously sized with the 9, 10 and x-ring being in the 6" black. It's the reduced target that is used for 100 yds. 

 I'll tell you light rifles light the Carbine are difficult to shoot offhand because they tend to wave and sway around. When I was competing in High Power I was using a modified Swiss K-31 and light cast bullet loads. Due to the weight of it, that rifle just sits there in offhand.

 For offhand practice I took a manila folder, drew a black bullseye (actually a small dot) on it, scaled to the distance (30' if memory serves) and taped it to the door of a metal cabinet in my shop. I would dry-fire at this in the offhand position and it made quite a difference in my scores....when I actually did it!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 9:01am
These are from yesterday's match.  Course A: 5 to sight. 10 prone slow, 10 prone rapid, 10 standing.
Unfortunately we were shooting into the sun, and only the far right lanes had good shade from the trees.  The bright metal on the front sight's top edge made it a lot more difficult to focus.  Looking through the rear sight it seemed to have lint in it.  I think that was just an illusion.






With the first sighters I was aiming at the left center of the bullseye to compensate for the front sight.  But either the sight was more vertical, or the lighting and my sight alignment were such that POA seemed to be prtty close to POI.  

It would be nice to have a coach watching to see if I was making changes to my cheek weld or other body mechanics.  But I think my poor shooting in rapid fire was because I couldn't clearly define the front sight.  But it is interesting that whole group is also low.

Would really love to come up with an effective way to blacken the sights where the finish has been lost.  One of the pistol forums mentioned a black india ink.  I might try that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 11:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 11:29am
Matt, blackening the front sight is really ni big deal. When I was competing in High Power I kept a can of Birchwood Casey aerosol sight black in my range bag. Now I keep a disposable lighter at my shooting bench and a couple at my gunsmithing bench specifically for blackening sights. A good coat of carbon from the flame of a lighter makes an amazing difference in the sight picture.
Please keep those range reports coming!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 5:51pm
Thank you gents.
I made a little kerosene smoker out of rifle shell, a cloth wick, and a 45 acp shell as a cap.
Worked pretty well.  Even in the basement lights I can see the difference.

  I can also clearly see the top of the front sight - which tells me the top isn't angled down sufficiently.   It may get filed down even though some consider that taboo.   We'll see.  It's a somewhat 'restored' carbine already.

Correction on the rapid fire target. Seems I can't add to 49.  Still way below where I ought to be able to score.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Thank you gents.
I made a little kerosene smoker out of rifle shell, a cloth wick, and a 45 acp shell as a cap.
Worked pretty well.  Even in the basement lights I can see the difference.



  I can also clearly see the top of the front sight - which tells me
the top isn't angled down sufficiently.   It may get filed down even
though some consider that taboo.
  We'll see.  It's a somewhat 'restored' carbine already.

Correction on the rapid fire target. Seems I can't add to 49.  Still way below where I ought to be able to score.



That's a great idea for a front sight smoker! Good job!

More taboo than altering a front sight is a firearm that won't shoot POI to POA. Just make sure you shoot plenty before you make changes to the front sight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2021 at 9:09pm
We went to the range to break in a P238 and brought the carbines too. We shared a lane and a target for an hour for some casual shooting. The Plainfield had occasional light primer strikes with the Korean ammo. When putting the misfired round in the Inland, it will fire. The 30 round magazines again were reliable while the 15 round magazines occasionally failed to feed. I will have to strip the Plainfield to clean, measure the firing pin protrusion, look at the hammer strike, etc. I will have to check out those magazines too. The Inland was exceptional and the Mrs was keyholing with it when fam firing.




The Inland rapid offhand at 25 yards.


The Inland again with three clicks of windage.



The Plainfield 10 rounds at 25 yards rapid offhand missing the rear sight aperture.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 8:24pm
The Plainfield got a new sight so it needed sighted in. The sight is in the same stakes as the old one, but it was so damn tight it was not staked again. I have a little range in the back of the property where I shoot at 25 yards. I have enough room to go to 100 yards, but need to build a backstop first.





You can see the target past the rifle. I use the 25 long paces measuring technique, very accurate method.




The Plainfield is shooting low and the Inland high. They are both bottomed out. I will likely give the Plainfield one more click windage and the Inland two. I gave the Inland two clicks at the range last week too, which makes both rear sights slightly left. The Plainfield is a billet sight and the Inland is pressed. The Plainfield is also late enough that many of the GI parts had dried up and were being manufactured in house so the front sight might have a different spec. Plainfield front sights were mounted slightly rearward too.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 4:58am
I think the purpose of the gun might dictate how it should be zeroed. Competition shooters would want to zero at longer ranges, but for the guy that rarely takes longer shots, a 25 yard zero should be sufficient. We zeroed our M1, M14 and AR on 1,000 inch ranges and qualified on much longer ranges using the same settings. One click of windage moves the POI 1-inch at 100 yards or .25-inches at 25 yards. .010 of front sight height moves POI 1.67- inches at 100 yards or about .42 inches at 25-yards. The spec. 7.62 x 33 shoots basically flat out to 100-yards. For people like me that can’t see much past 100-yards, there's no need to expect to hit or even see a target much past that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortar-Forker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 9:56am
Thanks for the info. In the eighties it was expert every year in the Corps with A1s and A2s out to 500 meters or 500 yards, but these eyes are older now. I usually zero at 50 yards that also zeros at 200. At 25 it should be low as the bullet is still rising and an inch or so high at 100. At a hundred yards a 25 zero will be three inches high or so.

After a double check, the Inland was not completely bottomed out and had a half click of elevation down. The front sight could be shiny too. Maybe it could get hit with with a blob of paint or tiny dab of JB on the very top of the sight.

There is a state range close by, Island Lake, that allows you to shoot all day up to 200 yards. I need to drag everything out there. I have a service grade Garand showing up Monday, and need to dial in new carry handle sights on an AR pistol too. I also have M1A and a ZPAPM70 to drag along that have yet to be shot on a longer range. It is time to get out the wagon and pack a lunch.









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 10:03am
To your point about .30 carbine rising.

I posted this in the thread about IMI softpoint.
Graph of .30 Carbine Federal SP when zeroed at 100 yrds shows a 2.2" rise at 50 yards.
(Their FSJ is pretty much the same.)  https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator
edit: This is probably worth further discussion both on practical and historical application.
According to Federal's graph, if zeroed at 100 yds, then point of impact at 25 yards will be just a hair under point of aim.  
I entered 1.5" for sight height when I used the calculator.  Maybe that makes a difference here.






Edited by Matt_X - Oct 09 2021 at 10:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 11:16am
If the point of impact at 25 yards is essentially the same as at 100 yards, then why is the acceptable point of impact on the 25 yards test target shifted upward 0.75"?   At least part of the answer turns out to be the sight hieght entered in ballistics calculator.

I don't know the history of this test target.   Its in Kuhnhausen on page 107.   (See the first post of this thread for an example I printed.) It appears in the 1953 TM9-1276 in Chapter 4 Repair and Rebuild  section 25 Firing Test (c) Targeting - but not in the 1947 TM9-1276.  

The hieght I used  for the graph in my previous post (above) was 1.5" and intended for comparison with IMI's ballasitics table.   According to the Kuhnhausen unfiled front blade hieght above barrel centerline is supposed to be .785" minimum.
Using Federal's calculator, changing the sight hight to .83" moved the muzzle (and angle?) upward relative to the target centerline.  This changes the 25 yard point of impact from .1" below target center to .4" above center.   Changing the blade hieght to .785" results in the same .4" rise at 25 yards

Perhaps barrel length and other factors account for the addtional shift on the 25 yard ordnance target.






Edited by Matt_X - Oct 09 2021 at 11:36am
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