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floydthecat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 6:00am
Pretty sure she proved the barrel on that carbine isn’t bent. Maybe Charlie’s eyes are?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 8:51am
Barrel hang seemed good.
I'm going to make a work rack to hold the carbine and then can check this more carefully.

I've been a little concerned about crushing the woodwhen tightening the recoil plate.  The wood under the plate looks OK.  But the threaded escutcheon is recessed and thats what felt like it might have some give.  

I can eyeball the barrel to see if there is any obvious bend.  Removing it from the reciever is well above my grade or equipment here.

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Donnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Donnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 9:22am
Charlie, enjoyable range photos. Thanks. Your daughter shoots well. I'm sure you are very proud of her. Glad to see she joined the right branch, too. Wink
As the weather gets nicer, I need to dig my two carbines out and get them to the range.



Edited by Donnie - Mar 12 2021 at 10:21am
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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Pretty sure she proved the barrel on that carbine isn’t bent. Maybe Charlie’s eyes are?

@Floyd,

I have to laugh because I remember rattling off that mag .. Circled Group.. As fast as I could pull.
When I looked at the group as I set it on the bench for her. I slid the peep down to the 100yrd setting.
After her getting a feel for the trigger break and seeing her hits.
She made her corrections and put pretty much everything else in the black.
I started her shooting rim fires at age 7. 

I think she would have had better results had I not had her shooting some slugs 1st from a Rem 870 12ga.
She's very skilled with her hand guns. The target she's posed next to was shot from 35yrds with .38Spl 158 gr SWC  and .357 Mag loads. Shot standing and kneeling. She complained that they didn't print the same. I was mixing the loads around and sometimes put in a snap cap to catch her flinching.

No fear in her, she was a Nationally Ranked Equestrian in College and before that a Multi State Champion in Barrel racing, Western Reining and English Dressage.
I was very proud of her accomplishments but I sure don't miss the $$ Costs.
The horses are the cheapest expenditure after you figure in all the different saddles, tack, show gear, practice gear, travel expenses, horse trailers and motor home... etc + Hospital bills- See below-
I was nearly stomped to Death by a Thoroughbred of hers I was leading in to the barn along with his pasture mate when a trespassers gun shot rang out and spooked 'Big Will'. A former Track horse that she 'Adopted' and trained herself. Suffered some broken ribs and a concussion from that loosing battle.
When we found out from the owners of the stables we boarded at were having financial problems, we invested in as percentage partners. Got lucky and got the Michigan State University Women's Equestrian team to board and train there. Ended up buying those partners out and later after my Daughter went in to the Navy we sold out while having full capacity. A profit finally !
She now works for the DOD along side of many of her former commanding officers near D.C.

The End

@Matt_X,
I'll return your PM later tonight or in the morning.

I've got a Date with a Marlin model 60 and new scope to tweak.
Sorry going Off Topic, hard not to brag on a Daughter.

Ch-P777
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 4:51pm
Sounds to me like she's worth bragging about!
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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 15 2021 at 8:43am
Finally had a chance to clear the workbench and get back to this.

When I removed the barrel band, there was no upward spring. 

Checked the fit with the recoil plate.  Its tight, but maybe it should be tighter?? 





Reinstalled and tightened the recoil plate, got another quarter turn on it without feeling it was going to strip or damage anything.
Barrel came up a little (see picture), but snugs down in without bouncing back.

Before removing the barrel band.


Before removing the recoil plate


Stock  (note: RSG S'G' stock not original to receiver, although SG recoil plate might be. )


Barrel rise upon reinstallation



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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 2:15pm
@Matt_X,

Sorry for my late reply. 
I've been on a Successful search mission for fellow member JD aka Jond41403 Big smile

Your barrel hang and Recoil Plate lock up to Receiver look good to me.
If it's just taking 'Light' Downward pressure to push it down to drop the Hand Guard and slide the Band forward, I'd say you have it as close as it's going to be.
It's not unusual for the Barrel Not to Spring back up when you remove the Band and HG.
Often it seems they tend to settle in.
Once I have the best barrel hang I can get I never remove the RP Screw again, unless down the road it needs some fitting/filing or to clear grime out from under it's front lip. On some of my shooters I put 2 small punch type index marks on the bottom of the screw - lined up to a mark on the nut.

I wouldn't be comfortable tightening the Recoil Plate down any farther, in fear of damaging the Plates wood seat or stripping out the Escutcheon nut. 
Speaking of which, Some may not agree but if I see cracking like I'm seeing on your RP ledge- I like to use Krazy Glue and weep in to any openings I see and also on the outer edge of the U shaped Ledge.
I've also glued between the Stock wood around the outer edge of the Escutcheon nut, in hopes of keeping it from any rotation.  

Looking at the picture of your Barrel Band- Shows it's not snug on the bottom/front. Showing a gap between the band and bottom of the stock nose.
I know from our PM's that you tighten the Swivel down enough so that the Swivel 'just' has enough movement to swing freely. So you should be fine there.

Last Fall I worked on a Shooter's extra Stock which had a Type III Band on it at one time. When taking his barreled action with the Type I band it had a similar fit your band is showing.
This is just his shooter stock he wanted to use and save any wear on his good stock.
I made a couple of shims from some hardwood shavings and slid them behind the barrel band spring. Once in place they can't be seen.
The extra outward pressure it put on the Band was quickly noted as a big improvement with much less movement between the barrel, stock and hand guard.

As best I recall, I heard of a few Shooters at our Club that use the Carbine for competition shoots having the outer bottom of a barrel bands inner ring shimmed with tape. 
Some putting thin shims in the Stocks' barrel channel nose that the barrel bands inner ring sets on.
Thinking about it, I can picture how it would help increase barrel hang.
I haven't done this myself or seen it, but the guy that told me about it works with me to service our Clubs Carbines.  He was a Korean War Armorer and very familiar with the carbine in competition shooting.

With all this said... Will any of the above get you shooting higher... I'm not sure.
Type I bands are hard to work with when trying to better shot placement.

And then there is the Front sight, Too Short ? Too Tall ?
You can always adjust your hold. Which is what I do if it's a original I rarely shoot.
Some here can give you general blade heights for a Flip Sight.
Always possible the Frt Sight was changed and never zeroed.
Blades can be carefully filed down.
Blades can have height added with JB Weld or What I prefer a neatly done Solder job, filed and painted. If a tall bladed replacement can't be found.

Hopefully others will share info about the blade heights that work for them with a rear Flip sight.

Again, Sorry for the late reply,
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W5USMC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 5:33pm
"Hopefully others will share info about the blade heights that work for them with a rear Flip sight."

Yep, If it shoots high aim low, if it shoots low aim higher. Same goes for left and right! Kentucky Windage!

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 6:20pm
I'm not too familiar with using crazyglue on wood.  I see it in the catalogs but its one of my typical adhesives or consolidants.  I'll look into it.  I've got some 'old brown glue', tightbond and epoxies.

After dinner I'll check how much gap there is under the barrel band.  Because it and the sling swivel are reproductions I'm perfectly willing to file the latter or add some shimming. 

I was looking at type 1 band  photos to see if there should be a gap or a spacer.  Pretty sure there's no type I drawings in Kuhnhausen.
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painter777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 7:00pm
There's a nice example of good early band fit here:


Compare to the bottom front edge of your pictured band.



Krazy glue works well for seeping in to small areas and doesn't leave a hi build up, unless reapplied over dried coats.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 8:29pm
I get the idea.  That's a lot better fit.

Due to the shape of the repro band, without taking it off, probably the only thing I can do that won't dent the stock is slip in some cardboard or similar material.

Most of the outer band contact with the stock is on the rear and right.
The bottom of the band has a bit of a peak to it which will be difficult to smooth out while on the gun.   A .002" feeler gage will just slip through there, and on the right by the spring, .003" easily slips through.





What I had been thinking was to reduce the hieght of the swivel (arrows). 




Perhaps a real Saginaw band would be better...

Example from club web page.  (Ignore arrow pointing to spring pin.) 



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35 Whelen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 10:45pm
As a habit, I always put 2 or 3 layers of an empty primer carton between the handguard and barrel. But I recently got a horrid looking, rust bucket of an IBM whose original Type 1 band has rusted so bad, it wouldn't clamp the stock and handguard well. So, I added the same shim material to the barrel channel as well. Not only does it shoot POI perfectly at 100 and 200 yds. with ball equivalent handloads, it is quite an accurate little carbine. Sometimes shimming a barrel in this manner changes the harmonics in such a way that POI is affected. So, you might try that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 9:42am
Thx 35 Whelen

@Matt_X,

Hopefully this will point out what I'm trying to say.
Object is to Shim to get the Barrel up.

The BLUE area if shimmed will put a Downward Pull on the barrel.
The YELLOW area when shimmed will push the barrel up. A few build up layers of Tape works well.
Or The Stocks barrel channel could be shimmed where it would contact the barrel band (YELLOW Area)

It's Possible after shimming on the Band or in the Barrel channel nose that the Hand Guard wont fit as snug to the Bands lip. Because of either shimming method 'Pushing' the Barrel upward.

To tighten loose Hand Guard:
See GREEN-  Using Tape or even a Flat leather bootlace in this area will snug the Hand Guard up.
Placed on the Band or over the Hand Guards front lip.

Another option is to Bend the Bands Ring over the Hand Guard Lip. I try not to do this incase I want to use this same Action in another Stock.

** Note Where these Shim locations are Avoids the Heat of the Barrel** 
** Shimming in the GREEN and YELLOW areas should pull the slack from the Bands outer ring**


I really hope this 'Example' works. I've spent an hour trying to down size this picture and add the colors  Ouch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 1:05pm
Charlie,
I see. I see.
 I thought it was the lack of good contact.  Same thing 35 Whelen was describing.
You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?

Regardless of where the barrel is, the sights will move with the barrel, so it doesn't change a thing. These suggestions are things that will stabilize the action and possibly make it more consistent (print in the same spot). If the barrel is slightly bent in one direction or the other by bedding it, it will certainly change POI, but not likely enough to move the impact by inches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?

Regardless of where the barrel is, the sights will move with the barrel, so it doesn't change a thing. These suggestions are things that will stabilize the action and possibly make it more consistent (print in the same spot). 

And until he has the Action stabilized with a properly fitting Recoil plate, and barrel band with some barrel hang, So he can get tighter more consistent hits......

How is he to know how much to add or take away from the Front Sight Blade ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2021 at 9:49pm
I hear that loud and clear! Thumbs Up

What I don't understand was the line about bringing the barrel up.

Why not bring the barrel even more snug into the stock?
My perspective is the gaps and uneven clamping creates a spring that lets the barrel move with every shot.  That's why my focus was on the outer band (the blue area).  Taking up all the slack in there seems like it would only do good.



Edited by Matt_X - Mar 19 2021 at 8:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 19 2021 at 5:05am
Anything touching the barrel (or not touching the barrel) certainly has an effect on where and how tightly it prints. Disassembly and reassembly can result in a different POI, if even ever so slight. They discovered that adding the type III band resulted in an improvement in accuracy. The t3 band certainly has an effect on barrel movement (whip) under fire. I think if one is trying to improve accuracy and stability, a t3 band has to be considered in the mix of things to do.

The early Mini 14 exhibits similar issues. Various devices have been marketed to improve it, such as harmonic balances, braces and even something as simple as adding a flash-hider. Both these guns exhibit similar issues due to the skinny barrel. Ruger eventually addressed the problem with a thicker barrel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 06 2021 at 2:44pm
Finally.  Morning was nice and calm.  Not too busy at the range.
Going to leave the sights alone for now.  Might push the rear one over a little more if I keep grouping them right.
With the smaller bullseye on the SR1 targets I had to work on focusing on the front sight.  Basically I think at this point its more me than the carbine. 
One FTF - this time I noted the magazine and will go over it one evening this week. 
The empties were flying!  I could hear them hitting off the underside of the roof.    Unfortunately I couldn't recover the majority.  No idea where they went - and I looked and looked.

Front band didn't loosen.  My cold smithing seems to have worked well.
Recoil plate screw may have backed off a 1/16.  I need to check my notes.

POA was the center of the bullseye.  Next time, at least on a SR1, I'll use 6 o'clock.


Sitting & kneeling. Two sets each. 

Offhand, 2 sets.  That's all me there - not the carbine!

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