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Range Report on my RTI Underwood Carbine

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tonyevans56 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 11 2020 at 7:34pm
The Korean surplus ammo I ordered finally came in yesterday so I took my carbine to the range to see how it ran.

1. Accuracy: I an totally pleased with accuracy. I only fired about 30 rounds today at 25 meters. With the exception of a few fliers that were undoubtedly my fault, all rounds could be covered by a coffee cup.



2. Function: brass went forward at about a 3 o'clock angle. I had 3 malfunctions. One round only extracted about one inch before the extractor let go and the next round didn't have an available chamber to go into.  The two other malfunctions were more like the classic stove pipe where the brass from the fired round was totally out of the chamber but did not eject.

I was using the only magazine I have. An old one that came with the rifle. I have new Korean manufacture magazines on order but they have not arrived.

These were the first shots I have ever fired from an M1 Carbine so I don't have any experience troubleshooting these issues.  I will say that the gun was freshly cleaned and lubricated. I did not totally disassemble the bolt because I don't have the tool yet but I did run it through my ultrasonic cleaner, blow it dry and re-lube it.

Any guidance from experienced M1 owners would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Tony
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GotSnlB28 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2020 at 8:04pm
Good shooting. I have been pleased with the korean surplus as well, but I did have one can where I observed some pierced primers and it was ammo not rifle headspace/fp.

Couple quick things to check for your FTF:
1) mag spring orientation, it should be pointing toward the front. >
2) check recoil spring length for ~10.25in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonyevans56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2020 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Good shooting. I have been pleased with the korean surplus as well, but I did have one can where I observed some pierced primers and it was ammo not rifle headspace/fp.

Couple quick things to check for your FTF:
1) mag spring orientation, it should be pointing toward the front. >
2) check recoil spring length for ~10.25in.

Great idea.  It probably wouldn't hurt to replace all the springs in the bolt as well. They could be as much as 76 years old. I will also check the mag spring.

Thanks for the response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonyevans56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by tonyevans56 tonyevans56 wrote:

Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Good shooting. I have been pleased with the korean surplus as well, but I did have one can where I observed some pierced primers and it was ammo not rifle headspace/fp.

Couple quick things to check for your FTF:
1) mag spring orientation, it should be pointing toward the front. >
2) check recoil spring length for ~10.25in.

Great idea.  It probably wouldn't hurt to replace all the springs in the bolt as well. They could be as much as 76 years old. I will also check the mag spring.

Thanks for the response.

I took the carbine apart this afternoon and the recoil spring measured 10.125".  Is that enough under 10.25" to possibly cause problems?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 7:34pm
All tips above well worth noting.

Keeping proper areas cleaned and lubed will eliminate drag that can offer up enough resistance to affect feeding and extracting.

I'd change the op spring or at least have a extra on hand.
Make sure the 3 Op slide lugs and their guide tracks are well lubed. Including inside where the cam cut mates to the bolts right lug.
Make sure your Op slide Stop pin is in the Full Up position, some will hang down a bit and put drag on the slide.... which is connected to the bolt....etc. All this can strain a borderline Op spring.
 
With your bolt out, see that the Extractor pushes back towards the right lug, fully pushing the little plunger in and returns fully.
See if the tiny plunger has the flat edge seating on the Extractor lip.
Look at the lip of the Extractor (where it catches the cartridge rim) for any burrs, don't believe thats a problem since your ejecting ok, but worth noting condition.
Check the bottom front of your bolt/that leads your next round from the mag for any burrs or rough edge. It can be lightly polished if needed.
Check the receiver track that the left bolt lug rides in for burrs. Burrs can be lightly wet stoned. Lube that left track when cleaned/after inspection.

Also lightly oil the feed ramp and lightly brush it with a fine wire brush, shaped like a toothbrush. Then wipe off with clean patch and spread a single drop of oil over the entire ramp.
Swab the chamber with Hoppes 9 or similar cleaner. Sometimes Steel lacquer cased ammo will leave a gummy residue.
Then I use a worn down .45 or .357, 38spl cleaning brush in the chamber and lighty twist with my fingers. Patch it afterward to remove any residue and oil.

If you take that single mag apart to check the springs orientation go ahead and clean the inside and lightly lube.
Check the 2 little nubs on the back and pry them out a bit if needed.
I very lightly oil the follower on my shooting mags.

A drop or two of Hoppes 9 to the gas piston can remove some sticky residue when you next shoot it.
So you know your getting the full kick that piston can offer you.

With everything said above and here. I'd expect better results for your next outing.
A good cleaning, properly lubed, good mag and good ammo helps..... but more shooting seems to workout the bugs.

Good Luck,
Ch-p777


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonyevans56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

All tips above well worth noting.

Keeping proper areas cleaned and lubed will eliminate drag that can offer up enough resistance to affect feeding and extracting.

I'd change the op spring or at least have a extra on hand.
Make sure the 3 Op slide lugs and their guide tracks are well lubed. Including inside where the cam cut mates to the bolts right lug.
Make sure your Op slide Stop pin is in the Full Up position, some will hang down a bit and put drag on the slide.... which is connected to the bolt....etc. All this can strain a borderline Op spring.
 
With your bolt out, see that the Extractor pushes back towards the right lug, fully pushing the little plunger in and returns fully.
See if the tiny plunger has the flat edge seating on the Extractor lip.
Look at the lip of the Extractor (where it catches the cartridge rim) for any burrs, don't believe thats a problem since your ejecting ok, but worth noting condition.
Check the bottom front of your bolt/that leads your next round from the mag for any burrs or rough edge. It can be lightly polished if needed.
Check the receiver track that the left bolt lug rides in for burrs. Burrs can be lightly wet stoned. Lube that left track when cleaned/after inspection.

Also lightly oil the feed ramp and lightly brush it with a fine wire brush, shaped like a toothbrush. Then wipe off with clean patch and spread a single drop of oil over the entire ramp.
Swab the chamber with Hoppes 9 or similar cleaner. Sometimes Steel lacquer cased ammo will leave a gummy residue.
Then I use a worn down .45 or .357, 38spl cleaning brush in the chamber and lighty twist with my fingers. Patch it afterward to remove any residue and oil.

If you take that single mag apart to check the springs orientation go ahead and clean the inside and lightly lube.
Check the 2 little nubs on the back and pry them out a bit if needed.
I very lightly oil the follower on my shooting mags.

A drop or two of Hoppes 9 to the gas piston can remove some sticky residue when you next shoot it.
So you know your getting the full kick that piston can offer you.

With everything said above and here. I'd expect better results for your next outing.
A good cleaning, properly lubed, good mag and good ammo helps..... but more shooting seems to workout the bugs.

Good Luck,
Ch-p777



Thanks for such a detailed list of things to do and look for. I'm ordering a new op spring tonight. I had lubed it well already.  I had no real guideline so I took the same approach I use with my garand.  (Grease where it slides and oil where it rotates.) I'm thinking that the extra attention to the chamber may pay off.  I scrubbed the bore really well since it was so dirty but I didn't think of using a worn .38 brush on the chamber. I have an early type ejector. See image below. Is there any benefit from changing to a later style?


I will go down the list and check everything. I'll report on my results.

Thank again for your help.  I intend to buy a good book on the M1 Carbine so I can hopefully get smarter faster!

Tony


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2020 at 10:07pm
Theres a benefit to every updated part. The Ejector on the right is said to give a better Extract, but if yours is throwing brass out to 3'o clock, you are in better shape than many. Some catch that brass on the forehead !

A good starter book is by Craig Riesch called : US M1 Carbines, Wartime Production.

This link will help with a Data Sheet and links to Videos:


HTH,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2020 at 6:49am
My understanding is that spec. extractor plunger springs should measure .410. I have purchased springs fresh from the package that measure .390. My experience has been that when one gets too far below .390, it can be problematic. Weak extractor plunger springs have been the single-most extraction issue for me and I have manufactured springs in longer lengths to tune extraction. Extraction issues can cause you to run-down all the blind ally's and pull-out what hair you may have left chasing other problems that don't exist.

Never have had any issue with the shape of the ejector-nose. All I care about is getting the empty out of the action...not where it lands and the slide type can have a lot to do with that as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonyevans56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 7:50pm
After a thorough cleaning of the chamber and extra attention to lubrication to all friction points, I made another range trip today. The target photo was 20 rounds at 50 meters. I can't complain about the accuracy.  My 64 year old eyes could not do any better. The rifle certainly can be more accurate than I can be.  

I did pay more exact attention to where my brass was going on this trip.  The rifle seemed to be kind of inconsistent.  Most of the time the brass ended up about 3' in front of the shooting bench at about 2 o'clock.  Some rounds seemed to go the same direction but landed on the bench to the right of the barrel. A few went to 3 o'clock and hit the divider between my bench and the one to the right. Finally, a handful came right back at my shoulder.  I am ordering a complete set of springs for the bolt and a new op spring from Fulton Armory.  I will report on any change after I get everything installed.  

I shot 40 rounds this trip and only had one failure to eject. I am including a picture of my 50 meter target and the one malfunction.  I am very appreciative of the positive input I have received. I am enjoying the process of figuring out what I need to do to get this old soldier to run. I almost forgot to mention that this trip I used two different brand new KCI 15 round magazines.

 
My one malfunction


My 50 meter target - I blame myself for the fliers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 7:57pm
That is a failure to eject. It is most likely a bad extractor. It is probably chipped or badly worn. The scattered ejection is also a symptom of a bad extractor. I would replace it if I were you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonyevans56 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2020 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

That is a failure to eject. It is most likely a bad extractor. It is probably chipped or badly worn. The scattered ejection is also a symptom of a bad extractor. I would replace it if I were you.


I will order a new extractor at the same time I order the springs. I appreciate your input.

Tony
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