The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > Registration Help /Rules/ Tutorials/New Member Introductions
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Quality H.M.C. German Police (Close to Original)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Quality H.M.C. German Police (Close to Original)
    Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 3:19am
 Hi there,

I posted this on the Milsurps forum as well and I’ve received some fantastic information, but I figured I’d post it for the experts to mull over here as well. 

I’ve been doing some research on the Quality Hardware M1 Carbine that I recently purchased and I need some help with the stock. First, let’s talk about the metal parts, I believe these to be original except for the magazine catch and sling swivel:

Receiver: Quality H.M.C. serial # 1638xxx
Barrel: Rock-Ola (undated) with P proof mark
Gas Cylinder: Rock-Ola
Type II Flat Bolt: EM-Q (Quality Hardware)
Slide Well: DA-Q (Quality Hardware)
Trigger Housing: Q-NL (Quality Hardware)
Sear: GE-Q (Quality Hardware)
Hammer: LT-Q (Quality Hardware)
Magazine Catch: To be determined (M on right side)
Front Sight: JQ (Quality Hardware)
Type I Rear Sight: GE-Q (Quality Hardware)
Type I Barrel Band: Unmarked, looks original
Sling Swivel: Unmarked, looks aftermarket

I have not done a full disassembly of this rifle yet, so these are just the markings visible from doing a field strip. So far, the modified magazine catch (and possibly the sling swivel?) appear to be the only non-original metal parts. Now, let’s talk about the German Police markings before we move onto my questions about the stock:

Top Rear Receiver: 282
Recoil Plate: L.P.W. (Landespolizei Württemberg)
L/H Side of Receiver: 0818
Bottom Trigger Housing: WB-LP-0818

Alright, now the stock. It’s a Type II walnut stock with the oval cut and high wood. The hand guard matches the stock and is Type I with the wide channel and two rivets. The entire rifle is well used and showing it’s usage - the stock is no exception. Here’s the issue: inside the sling well is LW-B (Lumb Woodworking Co. for IBM). Now my initial reaction is that the stock is obviously non-original, but I’m not quite convinced. As far as I can tell it’s the right type, with oval cut, high wood, and two rivets, and like I said, the wear on the stock is consistent with the rest of the rifle. Lastly, on the bottom of the grip is a stag horn marking which is consistent with Württemberg. So..

1) Did Lumb Woodworking Co. supply any stocks for Quality Hardware? I know the manufacturers were sharing supplies with each other during the war. The easiest explanation would be that this stock was with the rifle from the start, although I think it’s probably more complicated than that.

2) Did this rifle get a replacement stock sometime while it was with the German Police? It bears the stag horn marking, so it was obviously with the Landespolizei Württemberg. Maybe a couple stocks got mixed up? It’s a bit of a coincidence that it found another oval cut, high wood, two rivet stock, but not totally unreasonable.

What makes this mystery more difficult is I can’t find any other markings on the stock or hand guard! I think any other markings have long been worn off through the war and it’s time with the Police. Any help with this stock (or the replacement magazine catch or sling swivel) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Tyler


Back to Top
Liberium View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Feb 24 2020
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 7:50am
a 5 shot magazine ?
1944 national postal meter .30M1
KNSA (Dutch NRA) Member
Back to Top
03manV View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Mar 01 2020
Location: near Charlotte
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 9:38am
Nice carbine , I would say correct as used in Wuerttemburg.

In answer to your questions_ 
1- probably not, 
2- likely , almost certainly the stock was replaced in Wuertemburg when the carbine was
    repaired/reworked/or upgraded.
-The staghorn is also the "proof" mark of the Proof house in Oberndorf(in Wurettemburg); which may indicate a repair or replacement part that required a re-proving; or it could simply indicate ownership by the state of Wuertemburg.
-Yes, any other markings were worn off the stock in its use by the US and then Germany.
-The sling swivel does look to be a reproduction.

I'd like to see some pictures of the markings on the receiver and trigger guard relating to its
German usage.

Perhaps some other owners of WB carbines will chime in with whether or not their stocks have the antler on the pistol grip.

Don
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 11:19am
Liberium: Yeah, here in Canada our freedom is limited to 5 rounds Cry
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 11:22am
03manV: thanks for the reply, I’ll get some pictures of the markings on the metal parts this week and post them here. 
Back to Top
painter777 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Feb 18 2016
Location: Central MI
Status: Offline
Points: 635
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 11:25am
Welcome Tyler Beer

CH-p777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
Back to Top
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 12:27pm
Hi Tyler, and welcome.

I'm the author of BavarianM1Carbines.com. I started the research out of an interest in preserving the history of the carbines used by the police in West Germany and the Gendarmerie in Austria. I started in 2005. I've moved on to other research and two additional websites but try to update the "Bavarians" when I can. Currently working on a rewrite for Hessen and their carbines.

Keep in mind parts that don't appear to be original to the manufacturer may have been replaced by U.S. troops or armorers during or shortly after WWII. There's a possibility some of the carbines issued to the police went thru the inspect and rebuild program at Fabrique Nationale under the direction of U.S. Army Ordnance prior to being issued to the Germans.

It's impossible to know who replaced what if something was replaced. Unless it was replaced with a part manufactured by the Germans. That sling swivel you have, Erma Werke manufactured barrel bands and sling swivels for the West Germans. No identifying markings.

Add to it the owners who have had it since it returned to North America and what they may have replaced. There are commercial sling swivels that are flat like yours.

I need to look thru all my pics and see if I can find one made by Erma Werke. If I do I'll post it here.

Regarding Wurttemberg-Baden and the German police there during the American Occupation.

The markings mandated by the U.S. Office of Military Government (OMGUS) Wurttemberg-Baden were the agency initials on the bottom of the trigger guard. The Landespolizei added their inventory number after the required initials: WB-LP-1234 for example



When Wurttember-Baden was formed it was the upper third of the prior states of Baden and Wurttemberg. The other 2/3's of those prior states were in the French Occupation Zone. The Landespolizei in Wurttember-Baden were organized a bit different than their Bavaria equivalent. They seem to have retained some sort of identification with the state they had previously been part of.

Typical of the Landespolizei stations in the Baden half of Wurttemberg-Baden is the Baden crest stamped on the top of the receiver to the left of the .30 Cal. Carbine markings. The crest was accompanied by a number that identified which police station. I have yet to learn which station used which number.



Typical of the Landespolizei stations in the Wurttemberg half of Wurttemberg-Baden were the addition of the stag horns of the House of Wurttemberg. Usually on the receiver below the serial number and/or the bottom of the handgrip. I've seen a few where the inventory number on the bottom of the trigger guard was added to the left side of the receiver above the stock line. Have a look at the pics on the web page for Wurttemberg-Baden.





The proof house in Ulm adopted it for use as their proof mark when they started doing business after WWII (1958 I think) but used it only on barrels during the late 50's and early 60's. In conjunction with a date and nitro powder mark. Sometimes there is a nitro proof mark on the bolt and/or receiver of the carbines they proof tested the barrel.





What I've described so far has been the mandated markings by OMGUS and markings added by the Landpolizei in Baden and the Landpolizei in Wurttemberg. It goes farther....

What parts they added part or all of the serial number too varied from one agency to the next. Or the German police armory that serviced the carbines from a particular area. Some added no parts of the serial number, some only 3 digits, some 4 digits, some the entire serial number. So the omission of any part of the serial number was not uncommon. Though many have part of the serial number on various parts.

Hope this made sense.

Jim

Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2020 at 1:04pm
Hi Jim!

Great to hear from you, your reputation precedes you on this topic. Thank you for all the work you’ve put into this research, and especially for taking the time to respond to my post!

With respect to my carbine, this information was acquired with the direct help of your website and my markings are consistent with your research:

Top Rear Receiver: 282
Recoil Plate: L.P.W. (Landespolizei Württemberg)
L/H Side of Receiver: 0818
Bottom Trigger Housing: WB-LP-0818
Bottom Stock Grip: Stag-Horn (Württemberg)

I’m sorry I haven’t included pictures of these markings, I will be sure to post them sometime this week!

The rifle is still fairly new to me. I purchased it from a guy in Quebec who got it in an estate sale. I had no idea of this rifles history until it was in my possession and I started researching it. I’m certain now that he didn’t know what it was either. I’m told the rifle is in the same condition as when he purchased it, so I’m making an assumption that the sling and oiler got left behind in the estate (if they made it over seas at all).

I find it unlikely that the previous owner replaced the sling swivel so it was likely the owner prior to him, or perhaps earlier still. The history of the stock has been the most elusive for me but I think any of the theories above could hold merit. I’ll have to accept that I may never know.

Thanks again for taking the time, and I’ll be sure to post more pictures of the metal parts for all those interested.

Cheers!
Tyler
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 11:47pm

Here’s some pictures of the German markings on the metal parts, as discussed.

Tyler
Back to Top
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 11 2020 at 4:45am
Tyler

Currently I'm working on an overhaul of the page on Hessen along with changes to the Armory page. Bremen will probably be next then I need to get back to the infrared project and pages.

I need to make some changes on the Wurttemberg-Baden page but holding off waiting for additional info I anticipate will be forthcoming. Will be making contact with someone in Germany familiar with the history of the police weapons but need to get a few things squared away here first.

The lack of markings on the parts I think was related to the area in which your carbine was used and what they did or didn't do in that area. The stock was on it when they used it, as evidenced by those stag horns.

Jim
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 11 2020 at 11:15am
Thanks Jim,

I look forward to reading about your new research. Let me know if you’d like any more specific pictures of my carbine when you’re working on the Wurttemberg-Baden section.

Cheers!
Tyler 
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 12:10pm
Hello again,

I just saw another post on this forum of Smocki‘s original QHMC carbine and his sling swivel looks the same as mine with the difference being that his has Quality Hardware markings and mine is unmarked. Is the thought still that mine is a commercial reproduction or is it possible that Quality Hardware’s sling swivels were just a little different?

Cheers!
Tyler
Back to Top
MilsurpsUSGI View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MilsurpsUSGI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 12:40pm
I still think it's commercial. I believe QHMC swivels were mostly supplied by Union Hardware, so it should be shaped much like those seen on other Carbine manufacturers who used swivels supplied by them. A couple examples would be UI, UP, etc. Do you have a link for Smocki's QHMC? - Bob
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Online
Points: 1327
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by hurrikane18 hurrikane18 wrote:

his sling swivel looks the same as mine with the difference being that his has Quality Hardware markings and mine is unmarked

Tyler, do you really think that Smocki's swivel looks the same as yours? I am not seeing what you are seeing.




Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 2:03pm
Fair enough, if you guys still think it’s commercial that works for me. I definitely saw the difference initially when I compared it to other carbines with much more rounded swivels but the other Quality Hardware swivel I’m referring to is much more flat like mine. My eyes are obviously not as keen as some of yours though. Mine isn’t nearly as worn which is obviously suspicious but it’s hard to tell other than that. At least for me. Thanks again. 
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 4:21pm
 

^ here’s what I’m referring to. This is the picture used directly from this website regarding barrel bands/sling swivels. I can easily tell the difference between this sling swivel and mine. The swivel on the all original QHMC in the other post looks more similar to mine when compared to this rounded one though. That’s why I was curious if there was some correlation. Sounds like it’s just a coincidence that his QHMC is the flatter version though. What is the difference between the rounded version and flatter version? Is it a year difference or just difference in manufacturing?

Tyler
Back to Top
03manV View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Mar 01 2020
Location: near Charlotte
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 5:31pm
Tyler,
You are looking at the front of the swivel in your picture, and the back of the swivel in the picture above.
The swivel on your QHMC is a repro, based on the shape and finish; the above swivel is entirely different in shape/size and finish.

Does the white arrow have any significance to a question?


Don
Back to Top
hurrikane18 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jun 05 2020
Location: SK, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hurrikane18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 7:09pm
No the white arrow was already on the picture. I didn’t want to use anyone’s pictures without permission so I used the one on this website (It happened to have the arrow). So the back of the swivels are rounded and the fronts are flat on all WWII era swivels? I’ve never noticed that before, thanks!
Back to Top
03manV View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Mar 01 2020
Location: near Charlotte
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2020 at 11:24pm
Yes, on the type one swivel- they are asymmetric!

Don
Back to Top
sleeplessnashadow View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: Nov 09 2015
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 25 2020 at 5:52am
I checked the barrel bands and swivels on carbines used by Bavaria, the other U.S. Occupation Sectors, and Austria. Found two swivels that weren't GI. Both are different than one another and appear to have been hand made.

Have a look at this one Northridge International is selling: https://www.ebay.com/itm/392054782036



As GI parts have become more rare Northridge Intl has been having commercial versions made. A number of resellers buy wholesale from Northridge.

Jim
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.142 seconds.