Carbine Noob from Virginia
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: New Member Introductions
Forum Description: Tell us a little bit about yourself
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6553
Printed Date: Apr 19 2024 at 3:14pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Carbine Noob from Virginia
Posted By: Brokenjack
Subject: Carbine Noob from Virginia
Date Posted: Feb 11 2023 at 7:40pm
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Hello All, I've always wanted a firearm from WWII and i finally pulled the trigger(pun intended). Initially I wanted an M1 Garand and I remember, about 30 years ago, you could still get one pretty cheap. I never got one. Fast forward to now after marriage/kids, my wife bought herself a Beretta Silver Pidgeon to get into clay shooting which kind of opened the door to that gun-lust I thought I had forgotten about. Did some quick research to see if the Garand was what I still wanted, and started running into M1 carbine info. Liked the weight, mag switch out capability and the fact that it was still WWII vintage. I put a call into my buddy who helps a local dealer work gun shows and he said he was working one the following weekend. "Perfect!" I say, "find me an M1 carbine that is a somewhat collectible shooter!" He found 3 before the show even started. One was a shooter for about $850 that sold before the doors opened, the other wasn't that great, and then he sends me pictures of one that was $1550. That seemed like a lot of money but my budget was $1500. "What the heck", I say, it's only money right? The only thing I had was a few pictures of the outside of the gun and the 2 tags that were attached. I told him "Let's go for it". Received the gun after the weekend, had it transferred and I proceeded to take it to a gunsmith. He looked at it, handed it back back to me, and said "Do you want to fire it?". "Absolutely!". He loaded up 3 rounds in the mag and I popped them off in succession. He told me to clean/oil it and I'd be good to go. Not sure if I paid too much, but I really like the gun. So here is the info on the gun, if you've managed to sit through that boring story. The tags attached to the gun reads as follows: Tag 1 front & back: M1 Carbine, Inland "6M" WWII SN 6892445 Barrel 3-45, MW-0, New condition barrel. Tag 2 front: M1 Carbine .30 cal carbine Receiver: Inland 6892445 Next to last Inland block Barrel: Inland 3-45 Bolt: Underwood .u. (I have confirmed that this is a post WWII bolt) Trigger housing: Inland (confirmed) Hammer & Sear: Inland (confirmed) Front site:RIA (confirmed) Rear site: Late war type 2 (confirmed) Stock: USGI P proofed M-2 (This is the baffling part of the gun. M-2 confirmed. Questions to follow) Tag 2 back: Butt plate: Winchester (Can't tell the difference between Winchester/Inland) Mag release: M Type 4: 1945 (confirmed, maybe not WWII?) Op slide: SG Type 6 for M-2 (confirmed) Bayonet lug/swing swivel band: AI Inland type 3 (confirmed) Safety: Post war replacement (confirmed) Sling: WWII original (suspicious since it has the D tips. ???) Handguard: 4 rivet type 3 1944-on So really one of the things I'm trying to find out about, is the stock. It's definitely M-2 but I can't find the P proof marking. It's got a number 208 printed underneath the stock rear of the trigger, and the number 18 underneath the stock forward of the magazine and a weird hand scratched pattern of 2 vertical lines with an X over it. Any way, any info would be welcomed and appreciated. I will try and get some pictures taken and posted soon. Thanks! -Hal |
Replies:
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Feb 11 2023 at 10:13pm
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Welcome aboard! I'm a bit further along the learning curve. On a late stock there might be an inspection P on the grip if it went through an overhaul program. See the middle and then further down of this page. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stocks.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stocks.html Other marks might be rack numbers from where ever it has been in service. IMO 0 MW and other indicators of low wear and late war features make it worth the price for someone looking for a shooter. I'll encourage you to get some SR-1 targets and hit a 100 yard range. :) Nicolaus Associates has the April 1944 edition of the Field Manual available as a larger format reprint. Originals show up on ebay, etc, but will generally cost a little more. Either way I found it more useful and informative than the earlier 1942 version that is available as a digital download on the internet. The Field Manual covers field stripping, cleaning, and oiling. https://www.nicolausassociates.com/M1_Carbine.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.nicolausassociates.com/M1_Carbine.htm about 2/3 down the page
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Posted By: CGG-1943
Date Posted: Feb 12 2023 at 8:21pm
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Welcome from your neighbor in Maryland (I wish I still lived in Virginia)! ------------- Chris NPM, Early 1943 |
Posted By: Bungalow Bill
Date Posted: Feb 13 2023 at 10:55am
If you really like it, then you didn’t pay too much. Congratulations on the purchase and welcome to the carbine club.
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Brokenjack wrote:Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Feb 14 2023 at 10:46am
| Where abouts in VA? I’m near Richmond and would be able to assist you in most anything you would like to know |
Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 7:04am
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Good morning sir, I’m a new member. I’ve been spending some time reading posts. I have an Underwood carbine that came from my father. The problem is the headspace is too large according to the Foster gauges. Had another barrel installed but didn’t solve the issue. Some members say to try different bolts. You say you’re near Richmond, Va.? I live southside. I’m headed to this weekend’s “gun show” at the race track. There‘s been was an older gentleman there that had a lot of m1 and carbine parts. Going to see if different bolts would help. Wondering if you go to these shows. If so perhaps I could get your opinion.
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Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 7:24am
| Sending you a PM. |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 8:48am
A little more info please. Does it close on a field gauge? If it closes on a no-go, there could be more mileage in it for the average shooter. Just because it closes on a no-go, it should not be condemned. It will be just fine and completely safe until it closes on a field gauge and even a little past that. |
Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 3:23pm
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It does close on a field gauge. I took it to guy who is a member of this group this morning. We check it with a couple of his bolts, but still no good. I do have a non USGI barrel I like to try. Thanks for the reply
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Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 3:28pm
| one more thing. My dad would shoot this carbine without issue, but I don’t really want to risk having m1 parts imbedded in my face. |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 3:49pm
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In reality and mechanically, the carbine will shoot with head space longer than a field gauge. As long as the firing pin can ignite the primer, it will shoot. As of this moment in time, I have never seen a ruptured carbine case that was not attributed to ammo issues. The carbine chamber completely surrounds the base leaving no unsupported brass. However, I would never suggest that anyone should do anything dangerous either. If you get a used barrel, it's a crap-shoot as to whether or not it will head space, but the odds are generally in your favor that it will. If you replaced the old barrel with another used barrel and it did not space....the odds were not in your favor.
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Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Mar 18 2023 at 9:37pm
| I checked it out this morning, I tried it on two bolt provided and 3 bolts of my own with no go, which it closed very easily, and with a field gauge, which it closed very easily with all the bolt except one, that still closed but not as easy as the others. |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 8:11am
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There can be varying opinions on this, but I have always understood that go and no-go gauges are most useful in finish reaming the chamber on a new barrel. The objective being to wind up no tighter than 1.290 or loser than 1.295. It is a wonderful thing to have a chamber that spaces that tight and many actions are condemned unnecessarily because of that. It is entirely safe to shoot out to 1.302, which is the longest field gauge I have heard of. I would measure the actual head space and see exactly what it is. If it’s 1.302 or under…..shoot it and don’t worry about it. SAAMI allows a head space of .022 considering a case length of 1.280 and a field gauge of 1.302. Most brass is going to be longer than 1.280. As long as the head space is at least at or under 1.302 and you don’t shoot brass lengths under 1.280, you will not exceed the SAAMI spec. of .022. It’s understandable that long head space can make one uncomfortable and does detract from the value of the carbine, but for the casual shooter not taking it into combat it will shoot-on and be entirely safe to do so.
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Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 4:24pm
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I’m with you Floyd the cat, the case being completely surrounded. If gases do escape through the back of the case and the bolt, couldn’t be much worst then some flintlock going off inches from your face. Today I took one piece of Scotch tape, put on the bolt end of the field gauge. I then trim off the edge, measured it with a digital caliber. The reading I got was 1.301. Now for the receiver test. Stuck the field gauge in, gently pushed the bolt forward, then proceeded to pushed on the bolt lug. DID NOT CLOSE. I put a little more pressure on it, still didn’t close. I think I’ll call that “Good to go” I’ll probably still wear some kind of face shield just in case.
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Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 4:43pm
| Many useable barrels surely get changed to reach the holy grail of not closing on a 1.295 no-go gauge. Not bashing any enthusiast that insist on that, it’s their gun and their business. A range-gun that is routinely fired might deserve more caution. If the US military says 1.302 is still good to go, I’m satisfied with it. |
Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 5:12pm
| I have not read the military spec on what’s officially a bad barrel, but I agree. If the military says it’s good, I’d say it’s good |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 5:40pm
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Its in the TM9-1276 where it shows the 5th echelon used a 1.295 gage for use with newly rebarreled carbines. It also shows 1.290 and 1.300 are the minimum and maximum field gages. You guys can check and see if you read it the same as I. 1947 edition pages 17-18 for the check, page 25 figure 16 showing the three gages and dimensions. Is 1.302 an error or the standard at that time? pages 80-81 Description and illustration for head spacing after replacing barrel. Digital copy available here: http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/" rel="nofollow - http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/ edit There's also a digitized 1953 edition on the internet which shows two 'early' and four 'late' head space gages on figure 10 page 14. The 'late' gages incluse include a 1.298 and a 1.302" but no 1.300". On page 37 (Table II) it says must not close on 1.302" and must close on 1.290" for basic and field inspections. For those going through depot inspection, must not close on the 1.298" gage with old barrel, and 1.295" gage with new barrel.
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Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 6:19pm
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I have had my hands on more than one practically new commercial carbine that spaced out as far as 1.311 and still fired. I don’t think some manufacturers paid much attention to head spacing the action to any particular bolt, just reamed a chamber to what their bolt was suppose to be and sent them out the door. They can be from too tight to chamber a round to lose enough to rattle with the bolt closed on a chambered round and they were sold and used. My thing about gauges is they are not all the same. Manufacturers tend to build them based on what they think they ought to be it seems. A field gauge can vary from 1.299 to 1.301, or so I have read about. All they do is give you a rough idea of the condition of the action. I am sure barrels have been changed due to closure on a 1.295 no-go when the action might very well be 1.296. Measure your head space and you will know exactly what it is.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 19 2023 at 6:56pm
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I was actually going through the TMs today. Both Matt and Floyd (and others I am sure I missed) hit some good points. In a nutshell what I found today. TM 9-1276 1943 The procedure was to lock the slide back, Put the rimmed gage in the bolt. Slowly slide the operating slide forward. If it closes on the gage, then return to the ordnance depot 27. c. At this time a maximum headspace gage 1.300 inch B46619H only is
furnished for testing headspace in the field. TM 9-1276 1947 introduced the GO 1.290 gage as a minimum Gage Headspace 1.295 for 5th echelon maintenance in addition to the gages used in the third and fourth echelon maintenance. This would include the previous mentioned NO GO 1.300 The purpose of the 1.295 was when rebarreling, use the GO and 1.295 as a MAX, reason was so this could go into storage for reissue. If not rebarreld and it passed GO and shows a max headspace of of 1.300 it would go into the hands of the troops, or to accompany troops overseas. It was not to be placed back in storage for reissue I believe the thought process here was that a headspace of less than 1.295 was ready to go with plenty of life still in it. Headspace up to 1.300 was usable for battle TM 9-1276 1951 thing change New gages did not have a rim, they had the small shoulder that the extractor does not grab Gage, Headspace 1.290 Min no perceivable bite (see procedure change below) Gage, Headspace 1.298 Those with less headspace are acceptable to go back into stock (Depot maintenance only) Introduction of the Field Test Bolt. This is used to insure interchangeability (bolts?) The bolt would be used when rebarreling and every effort would be used to hold the tolerance as close to the 1.290 as possible. Gage, Headspace 1.295 Under no circumstances should the rebarrel exceed the 1.295 headspace. Gage, Headspace 1.302 those less than 1.302 with a component bolt are acceptable in hands of troops, domestic or overseas (Field maintenance only) In order to check headspace you would disengage the slide from the bolt and you would use the lightest finger pressure. TM 9-1005-21-35 1969 basically the same as above except Pg 20 slide disengaged, use 7319943 (1.302) Bolt should not close with slightest finger pressure. If bolt closes on gage, headspace is excessive. Use field test bolt to determine whether bolt, chamber or bolt lug seats in the receiver are worn. If field test bold does not close on the gage, the bolt is worn and must be replaced. If field test bolt does close on gage, barrel and receiver are unserviceable and will be rejected. In summery, as I see it. the NO GO changes over time from 1.300 to 1.302. the in between gages are use to determine is a carbine was eligible to be put back in stock or to go to the troops. My WAG is they calculated attrition rates and was a way of using up those near the end of their lifespan while keeping ready to go in reserve. They probably planned on leaving them overseas or dumping overboard. This was done in great numbers at the end of WW2 because the logistics of the amount of firearms coming back was staggering. Rebuild, storage, etc. Now I will defer to those who know more than I read (and comprehend) to lay out what is considered safe for civilian use. Maybe someone can put it all together to be used a sticky for all to reference. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 20 2023 at 7:41am
| I think you got it all in there Dan. The carbine never changed....it's the same gun. Specs. never changed due to some revision in the carbine action. Somebody realized the carbine was completely safe with head space exceeding 1.300. Something many of us have known for quite some time. I have no data to prove it, but am pretty sure most OOB explosions and parts failures can be attributed to ammo, tight head space or some other mechanical or human induced issue. More likely than not, a carbine will simply fail to fire at all if the head space grows too far. |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 20 2023 at 2:02pm
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Just in case interested parties might wonder just when a carbine might stop firing….I have a story. I have modified a Saginaw Gear to run 9mm. Strangely enough, SAAMI specs allow .022 head space .754-.776, which is the same as 7.62 x 33, 1.302-1.280.= .022. I was running an Iver Johnson cast bolt, which initially spaced inside .022. I just kept on shooting it until I finally became leery of it and pulled it. Just for kicks I measured the head space at .035 and it was still shooting. That’s .013 past the maximum, which would equate to 1.315 in a 30-carbine action. 9mm chamber pressures don’t duplicate 30-carbine pressures and I certainly do not recommend trying it in a 30-carbine, which could possibly cause some serious problems. It’s just an indication that a firing pin can still ignite a primer at considerably sloppy long head space and can serve as a reminder to check head space on occasion, especially on an often fired action. I was not trying to see how far I could go. The cast bolt just self destructed long before I thought it might. I no longer let cast bolts get anywhere near a carbine action.
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Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 20 2023 at 7:42pm
| Just want to thank you guys for all the info. It’s greatly appreciated. I’m sure I’ll be learning a lot more about the carbine from the members here. Max thanks for the link to the military book for the m1. Does someone make copy in book form? I was amazed how detailed they were about cleaning and rust protection. The barrel wrench is crazy. Wonder what became of those. By the way I bought my first Inland at a gun show in DE back in early 90s ($350) Five digit SN. I know it’s rebuild, but does have all USGI parts. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 7:07am
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Printed copies turn up at general used book stores as well as places that specialize in military books and WW2 - Korean conflict militaria. Nicolaus is a small company that reprints some of the manuals (hyperink in the second post of this thread). There may be others currently reprinting as well. Just be carefull that the reprints are complete. For example there is an FM 23-7 reprint that only contains the first portion of the manual. The Club's Publication page has the details such as size and number of pages for nearly all. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/books.html " rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/books.html ;
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 12:19pm
I have some manuals from the Larry Ruth collection. Let me know what one specifically you are looking for. The barrel wrenches are out there, Larry had a full draw of the USGI and commercially made wrenches. I will not be getting to those for a few months. If anyone has tool requests, drop me a PM or email. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Michael N
Date Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 6:22pm
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A lot to choose from at uscsrbine30. Thanks again for the info and links.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 6:42pm
If you click on the picture at the top you will be brought to our web paged. Menu on left side is where you will find the book and manual page. And all the other pages will keep you busy for a month. Enjoy! ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 21 2023 at 8:27pm
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Assuming you want a field manual and a tech manual, in my opinion can't go wrong Nicolaus's reprint of the 1944 FM23-7, and the 1953 version of the TM9-1276. Same price range as an original, but easy to lay open on a table. The field manual is an enlargement. https://www.nicolausassociates.com/M1_Carbine.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.nicolausassociates.com/M1_Carbine.htm |