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What is this doing in my Carbine?

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance
Forum Description: What to Check, Reloading, Tips for Accuracy, Competitive/Recreational Shooting
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6329
Printed Date: Feb 07 2023 at 7:34pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: What is this doing in my Carbine?
Posted By: Rebel92
Subject: What is this doing in my Carbine?
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:08am
Greetings carbon based life forms, 

A little back story: I got my first carbine from the Midway batch whenever that was, I think last summer. Its an Inland, 3.07. Interesting mix of parts (type one band, type 2 bolt with type one firing pin and a type of 3 adjustable sight). Anyways, I have had the gun since then, and have shot several thousand rounds out of it. Well, I finally got around to filling out the data sheet and submitting it to Dan Pinto, and he pointed something out to me. I had put that it had the bushing in the rear of the receiver, and he states it should not. Well, upon closer inspection of the " bushing" i discovered I could PUSH the "bushing" using a punch small enough to get into the hole in the back of the receiver. I wondered if I could get it out to see what it was, and I did. I found a ROCK, that I will include a picture of. Now, I have not shot the carbine since removing the rock, or as I first thought, "bushing", but have noticed that the slide seems to not have as much "oomph" when released. 

My question, what in tarnation is the rock doing in it! I am tempted to put it back in. "If it aint broke dont fix it" LOL

I mean, I have shot it (my most reliable shooter with the rock in it), taken it apart and cleaned it dozens and dozens of time (more than necessary) and it has always remained in place until I decided I needed it to come out and see what it really was.















Replies:
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:16am
My guess is somebody might have tried to add some strength to the operating spring….the economical way. Or, it got in there by complete accident when it was being cleaned or disassembled for some reason. I think it’s pretty hard to figure it just fell in by accident though. 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:47am
If you look at the rear hole in the receiver, you can guess as to why I thought it was some sort of bushing! 


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:58am
I believe Floyd nailed it and that is someone's attempt to get more life out of a worn out spring. To get a rock in there one would have to hammer it in I would imagine so an accident is unlikely in my opinion. It's even flat on the end the spring would rest against so I believe it is definitely intentionally inserted. I would keep the Rock with your carbine items though if it were mine because that is part of its history. Someone did that out of country since that's where the Midway carbines came from


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 11:15am
While they may not have had to pound it to get it in there as I was able to push it out with a little pressure, I think you may be correct. 


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 11:23am
When you go to shoot it again rebel, you may want to take along a spare New Old stock usgi recoil spring with you because it very well may start hiccuping if you use the same spring without the rock now. Or it may very well chug right along as if nothing happened but I would take a spare new spring just in case.hth


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 11:37am
I think you should put the rock back in - without it it's not a rare "ROCK"-ola . That would be a great GunBroker description...


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 12:20pm
Jond, yep, I have already thought about that. Only problem is, NOT ONE OF MY "NOS"  Recoil springs measures 10.25!!! Dont even get me started about how much that drives me nuts.. they are all shorter. 

GotSnlB28, yeah, its not a line out, its a rock-out Big smile


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

Jond, yep, I have already thought about that. Only problem is, NOT ONE OF MY "NOS"  Recoil springs measures 10.25!!! Dont even get me started about how much that drives me nuts.. they are all shorter. 

GotSnlB28, yeah, its not a line out, its a rock-out Big smile
If it's a shooter get a Wolf Springs spring kit, I believe about $18.00


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David Milisock


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 12:42pm
Aren't the wolf springs all extra power though? I've heard mixed reviews on them that it makes some carbines run good and turns others into jamimatics. I've heard their magazine springs are all excellent though


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 1:10pm
After close inspection, The rock is unmarked and I believe it to be a reproduction. 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 1:54pm
Ethan, are you sure it is just a rock and not a raw diamond or a rock of crack? Maybe that is how the Italians smuggle stuff.LOL

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Ethan, are you sure it is just a rock and not a raw diamond or a rock of crack? Maybe that is how the Italians smuggle stuff.LOL

Now that you mention it, I did get really jittery after handling it. I will send you a sample for "testing" 


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Jond41403 Jond41403 wrote:

Aren't the wolf springs all extra power though? I've heard mixed reviews on them that it makes some carbines run good and turns others into jamimatics. I've heard their magazine springs are all excellent though
They have both standard and extra power recoil springs. I believe the spring kits are extra power recoil springs and the standard power is sold individually but I'm not sure. I always get the kits as they have all the springs for the rifle for peanuts.

What I can tell you is that I've installed dozens of the extra power recoil springs in 30 Carbines without any issues. I own 2 shooters myself an Inland and a Quality Hardware. All springs and complete bolts replaced, they shoot like it's 1943.


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David Milisock


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 5:30pm
Thank you for the feedback, I have been on the fence about them. I may have to give them a try


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 5:48pm
If in doubt buy the kit and a standard power. I buy the extra power because it reduces the force that the slide has at the extremes of it's travel. I do what I can to reduce wear on the receivers. They are getting up there in years. Mine are 79 years old but new bolts fit like a glove.

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David Milisock


Posted By: Sawbones
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 6:48pm
If the spring is weak couldn't ya simply stretch it to give it more tension?  Ethan you being a fisherman you probably have a fish scale on your boat.  You could figure out how to measure the stretch tension w/ it.  Compare tensions of all your carbine springs?

-------------
I know worrying works because none of the stuff I worried about ever happened. Will Rogers


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

If the spring is weak couldn't ya simply stretch it to give it more tension?  Ethan you being a fisherman you probably have a fish scale on your boat.  You could figure out how to measure the stretch tension w/ it.  Compare tensions of all your carbine springs?

I'm an advocate of that in critical cases of collector grade rifles so the originalspring is there. If the problem is that the spring is a bit short or weak.

However the springs are so inexpensive it makes no sense for a rifle that gets shot regularly, a single recoil spring is $15 and the entire kit with an extra power recoil spring is just $18.


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David Milisock


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 7:34pm
Many of these imports were likely in places where parts and support could have been scarce. Maybe they used what they had and rocks are generally plentiful everywhere.


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Many of these imports were likely in places where parts and support could have been scarce. Maybe they used what they had and rocks are generally plentiful everywhere.


I was thinking something very similar that maybe it was a case of no recoil springs to be found for whatever reason (which there could be many). I wonder how long a worn out spring could keep running by adding a rock to make up the length difference as it weakens further and further? Three rocks in and she's still running haha!


Posted By: Liberium
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 2:02am
Originally posted by David Milisock David Milisock wrote:

Originally posted by Jond41403 Jond41403 wrote:

Aren't the wolf springs all extra power though? I've heard mixed reviews on them that it makes some carbines run good and turns others into jamimatics. I've heard their magazine springs are all excellent though
They have both standard and extra power recoil springs. I believe the spring kits are extra power recoil springs and the standard power is sold individually but I'm not sure. I always get the kits as they have all the springs for the rifle for peanuts.

What I can tell you is that I've installed dozens of the extra power recoil springs in 30 Carbines without any issues. I own 2 shooters myself an Inland and a Quality Hardware. All springs and complete bolts replaced, they shoot like it's 1943.


I am shooting competition with a Wolff spring in mine, no problems at all and since I ended up first in the competition last year I can say it works pretty good.


-------------
1944 national postal meter .30M1
KNSA (Dutch NRA) Member


Posted By: Sawbones
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 6:54am
1.  After re-assembling the gun without the rock does it function properly when fired?
2.  If "NO" to the above, does the gun function properly after stretching the spring?

Would be nice to know the answer to both.


-------------
I know worrying works because none of the stuff I worried about ever happened. Will Rogers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

1.  After re-assembling the gun without the rock does it function properly when fired?
2.  If "NO" to the above, does the gun function properly after stretching the spring?

Would be nice to know the answer to both.

I am gonna have to test that theory. It has been raining for the last week, so I am actually busy building an Ark. But, next time I go to shoot I will Pack: 1) The unmarked reproduction Rock 2) My spare Springs 3) a Tape measure to stretch out spring if gun does not function properly. 


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 9:34am
The M1 Carbine among the general firearm community, (in my opinion made up of 50% of people who couldn't count their testicle twice and get the same answer) has a reputation of poor reliability. 

Well one of the toughest men known to man Sgt. Maj. Basil Plumly served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.  I'm sure he wasn't what he used to be after, well neither are the rifles. Fortunately many of the rifles can be brought back to near or to new performance. Damn shame in this day and age that we lose good men.

Look at this forum, go to the web site, if you've got a shooter install an M2 magazine latch and all the updates done during the war. You'll have a wonderful rifle and do the old girls reliability reputation alot of good.


-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 1:35pm
A well-running carbine will cycle across a fairly wide range of chamber pressures and spring strengths. Any re-loader can attest to that. Too weak a spring can beat-up the gun and too strong can limit it to only strong ammo. I don’t recall a single situation where a spring measuring slightly off 10.25” one way or another ever mattered. 




Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Aug 24 2022 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

A well-running carbine will cycle across a fairly wide range of chamber pressures and spring strengths. Any re-loader can attest to that. Too weak a spring can beat-up the gun and too strong can limit it to only strong ammo. I don’t recall a single situation where a spring measuring slightly off 10.25” one way or another ever mattered. 


There's plenty of truth in the above statement.  Standard springs have worked for me with 110 grain bulletts, with 13.5 grain to 16.5 grains of LilGun. The extra power springs have been reliable with 14.5 grains to 16.5 grains of LilGun. 

I have never had an issue with an extra power spring with any factory or military 110 grain load.


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David Milisock


Posted By: Bubba-7
Date Posted: Sep 01 2022 at 12:16pm
Correct recoil spring function can be a function of the gas port size.
As a disclaimer: Individual results may and do very.
First, I would not recommend to anyone to use any commercial springs on a M1 carbine. 

Second, I had a carbine that was 50-50 function.  It had FTF, etc. and it had a "high speed spring" in it.  I replaced the spring with a used US GI spring and it worked 100%.

Third, I had one carbine that would not function, everything was right so I inspected the gas port.  There was something in it.  I pushed the blockage into the bore and I could see it but it was not free.  I figured it was lead from shooting cast bullets.  I took a rod and pushed it out the chamber.  It was metal so the see how smart I was, I put a magnet to it expecting lead, but it was not lead it was steel.  I reasoned it was from drilling the gas port, a piece of drill cutting was left in the gas port.  With that removed the carbine worked fine.

Fourth, I have had carbines that did not function and I opened up the gas port a bit.  If I remember right I used a .076" bit.  It then functioned fine.  I think it had a "high speed spring" in it.  It was a junker so nothing hurt.
After that I learned not to use commercial springs, and I went on a quest to buy all the US GI recoil springs NIW, I could fine.  I think I only have a few left, maybe 40 or 50.
I think it is interesting the results David has had with different power loadings.  
So to edit my first sentence, Correct recoil spring function can be a function of the gas port size and load pressure.






Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Sep 01 2022 at 2:09pm
Sluggish action can certainly be related to gas-port issues. We all understand the gas system should be left alone, but if one has issues that other remedial attempts have not corrected….might be time to pull the piston and check things out. The caliber conversions I’ve done usually require some modification to include enlarging the port and altering the piston and nut. Ordnance altered the nut with the introduction of the type II. The shelf can be recessed much deeper to allow additional piston travel. This would probably only be necessary in a carbine that won’t cooperate and everything else has been tried, or to assist cycling on weaker ammo. 


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Sep 02 2022 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Bubba-7 Bubba-7 wrote:

Correct recoil spring function can be a function of the gas port size.
As a disclaimer: Individual results may and do very.
First, I would not recommend to anyone to use any commercial springs on a M1 carbine. 

Second, I had a carbine that was 50-50 function.  It had FTF, etc. and it had a "high speed spring" in it.  I replaced the spring with a used US GI spring and it worked 100%.

Third, I had one carbine that would not function, everything was right so I inspected the gas port.  There was something in it.  I pushed the blockage into the bore and I could see it but it was not free.  I figured it was lead from shooting cast bullets.  I took a rod and pushed it out the chamber.  It was metal so the see how smart I was, I put a magnet to it expecting lead, but it was not lead it was steel.  I reasoned it was from drilling the gas port, a piece of drill cutting was left in the gas port.  With that removed the carbine worked fine.

Fourth, I have had carbines that did not function and I opened up the gas port a bit.  If I remember right I used a .076" bit.  It then functioned fine.  I think it had a "high speed spring" in it.  It was a junker so nothing hurt.
After that I learned not to use commercial springs, and I went on a quest to buy all the US GI recoil springs NIW, I could fine.  I think I only have a few left, maybe 40 or 50.
I think it is interesting the results David has had with different power loadings.  
So to edit my first sentence, Correct recoil spring function can be a function of the gas port size and load pressure.





I have a question when testing do you use modern factory, surplus military or reloaded ammo? Have you chronographed the test ammo? If chronographed how far from the muzzle? 

I ask because if your rifle did not function with a standard power Wolf replacement recoil spring, to me it would suggest other issues. Proper cycling with a military spring to me begs some questions.  Was the replacement unused military surplus? Was it used military? 


-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Sep 02 2022 at 1:48pm
He posted that he replaced it with a used, usgi recoil spring and it worked 100%. He said it had a high speed commercial spring in it that made the reliability 50/50. I too have always been told to always go with usgi. They are still easy to find and are cheap. I have read reviews of shooters like yourself david, that have had good results with them, but I have read also a lot of other reviews where they just ruined the reliable function of the carbine. I only own usgi springs, but I have been curious about the aftermarket spring just because of the mixed reviews. I've always been in the thought of mind being, if Winchester intended it to have an extra power spring, they would have designed it with one. I did not know wolf made a standard spring for one though.


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Sep 02 2022 at 4:16pm
I'm always interested in marginal operating M1 Carbines. 

The problem I see with the Wolf packaging is that the spring kit I believe only comes with an extra power recoil spring. The standard power spring I believe is only sold by itself. That's a bit confusing. 

Diagnosis is difficult because military surplus ammo is not what it was in 1942, it may have been made in 1942 but today it's 80 years old. Similar can be said for later dated military surplus ammo. Was it ever in spec, if it was has it aged and changed?

The powder used in the original cartridge is no longer available, I've been able to find powders of similar burning rates but never one that I've been satisfied with. I've had better reliability with slower powders, mostly those produced for magnum pistols that operate in the 40,000 to 44,000 PSI range.

I've found that cold weather reliability of my Carbines with surplus ammo has been dubious so I've tested civilian factory ammo and it was not much better. One observation is that the M1 Carbine for me with all ammo is a bit, to more than a bit to out right dirty.

My solution is to use magnum rifle primers for reliable cold weather ignition, Hodgen LilGun in charge weights from 15.5 to 16.5 grains depending on projectile, producing 2050 to 2100 FPS at 10 feet from the muzzle. (Of course those same loads must be hot weather tested for safety.)  An extra power recoil spring to medigate recoil and to improve cold weather cycling, replacing grease and oil with dry lubricants. 

The old greases and oils used for lubrication become liquid with long shot strings and absorb unburnt powder becoming gummy when cooled to down right unusable muck in 5 /10 degree or colder weather.

I've been able to achieve excellent all weather reliability. 


-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: Bubba-7
Date Posted: Sep 02 2022 at 9:45pm
David,
I too liked to find a marginal working carbines, so I could learn what it took to fix them.  I once told all the gunsmiths in town, if they got a carbine in need of repair, I would work on it for nothing except parts if required.  I did get a few calls.  One had a brass ring in the chamber and would not chamber another round, imagine that.  I removed the ring with a 30-06 broken shell extractor.  But of course the owner tried to force in one more.  Way long headspace but too short with the ring.  That was a first for me. 
So I know it can happen.  As far as above, I was shooting Aguila or LC. 


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 9:05am
I've clocked surplus ammo the ran in the low 1800's one batch that had rounds in the high 1780's and as high as 1875 really bad stuff. So I clock everything. 30 years ago it was so bad I stopped buying surplus altogether and bought some civilian factory, it was better but still too low. I just reloaded and it's been that way for 3 decades. I've never clocked surplus ammo that was anywhere near the 1985 FPS bottom threshold. 

My experiance with my carbines and cold weather makes me wonder if the reported issues in Korean winters was a mix of barely in spec WWII rifles and bad military ammo.

Mine run like rabbits hot or cold.


-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by David Milisock David Milisock wrote:

The old greases and oils used for lubrication become liquid with long shot strings and absorb unburnt powder becoming gummy when cooled to down right unusable muck in 5 /10 degree or colder weather.


David - Have you had an opportunity to test carbines with PL Special Lubricating and Preserving Oil or the more recent CLP in extreme cold weather?





Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:01pm
David, I had some EC 4 (1944 Evansville Brass ammo) chronographed, and it blew my mind how consistent it was at around 1950 FPS. I guess depends on how it was stored. 


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 9:44pm
Exactly rebel, it all boils down to how it was stored. 80-year-old ammo stored correctly should shoot just fine and chronograph just fine


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

David, I had some EC 4 (1944 Evansville Brass ammo) chronographed, and it blew my mind how consistent it was at around 1950 FPS. I guess depends on how it was stored. 

I haven't, I'm using a dry moly, when I get back to the house I'll check the brand. I use it on all my autoloaders. 

It is not a preserving treatment,  rifles going to be stored awhile need protection.  However the dry lube really makes long shot string in cold weather and I see no wear that one might expect. 


-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

David, I had some EC 4 (1944 Evansville Brass ammo) chronographed, and it blew my mind how consistent it was at around 1950 FPS. I guess depends on how it was stored. 
Yep, if stored in a stable environment I fired 303 British from the Boer War.



-------------
David Milisock



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