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Fake Rockola Flip Sight

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6309
Printed Date: Mar 29 2024 at 6:13am
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Topic: Fake Rockola Flip Sight
Posted By: carbinekid
Subject: Fake Rockola Flip Sight
Date Posted: Aug 02 2022 at 6:42pm
Hopefully no one here is bidding on this sight… Very fake. Big give away are the machining marks on the sides. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY



Replies:
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Aug 02 2022 at 9:32pm
Looks to have been "aged" too.


Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 12:03pm
Milling marks on the bottom are a dead give away also. Usually when sellers want to peddle these style of fakes, the don't show the bottom of the sight.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by carbinekid carbinekid wrote:

Hopefully no one here is bidding on this sight… Very fake. Big give away are the machining marks on the sides. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

help me out. "The machining marks on the sides". What about these, to you, gives it away? 

Yes, it is easy to spot for some, but for those of us (myself included) spotting fake sights and fake barrel bands are still difficult. 


Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 4:09pm
Seller has now removed any description of the flip sight. It used to read that id didn't look like any reproduction flip sight that the seller had seen before. Now, he / she can't be accused of lying if he / she doesn't have anything in the description. That deletion of the description happened sometime this afternoon.


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

Originally posted by carbinekid carbinekid wrote:

Hopefully no one here is bidding on this sight… Very fake. Big give away are the machining marks on the sides. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/295120278383?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_3v5stTuSa2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=mwMqBlGtRYu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY



help me out. "The machining marks on the sides". What about these, to you, gives it away? 

Yes, it is easy to spot for some, but for those of us (myself included) spotting fake sights and fake barrel bands are still difficult. 


You're already doing what is necessary to learn how to tell the real from fake.All you have to do is just read past threads on them and make sure to look at and save the pictures,and be sure to read newer threads like the one we're on now and you will start to see the differences. Since you know this one is fake rebel, save the picture under fake sights. do this every single time you see a sight that has been declared by people in the know fake or real and keep a picture montage of everything. I'm not real good with these either haha. Beside the picture take notes of any comments that anyone says of what's wrong with this or that and pretty soon you will put the huge puzzle together more clearly. That's what I would do if I were to want to know how to tell real from fake. Luckily my Winchester has an adjustable site so I don't have to worry about these expensive little guys haha


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Mike in NC Mike in NC wrote:

Seller has now removed any description of the flip sight.

I still see the original description. In fact it looks as if nothing about the auction has changed. Perhaps he did remove it at some point, but it's currently there.

I was the high bidder on this auction for the past several days. I had bid an amount that would surely guarantee that I win the auction. I really wanted an authentic Rockola flip sight.

Then I saw this thread last evening and my heart sank (especially considering how much I had already bid). Overnight I thought about what I should do. 

This morning I contacted the seller and explained that I had found information leading me to believe that this sight was a reproduction. I asked if he would be kind enough to cancel my bids as I was under the impression that I was bidding on an authentic sight.

The seller quickly replied to my message and also cancelled my bids, at significant monetary loss to himself. He asked how I had come to the conclusion that this sight was a reproduction and I pointed him to this thread. From my correspondence with the seller, I believe he was under the impression that it was an authentic sight.

I have to give thanks to the OP for starting this thread and saving me from making an expensive mistake. I also have to give thanks to the eBay seller for cancelling my bid when he was certainly not required to do so. The description does not claim that it is an authentic sight, even if it gently suggests as much.

This has been a learning experience in carbine collecting for me, and almost a very expensive lesson.


Posted By: dnewsom89
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 6:42pm
This is my auction. I have been collecting carbine parts for the better part of 20 years and, I will admit, this one had me fooled. I'm still not 100% but if there is a consensus it's fake then I will just pull the auction or give the current bidders a chance to retract. 

Originally posted by Mike in NC Mike in NC wrote:

Seller has now removed any description of the flip sight. It used to read that id didn't look like any reproduction flip sight that the seller had seen before. Now, he / she can't be accused of lying if he / she doesn't have anything in the description. That deletion of the description happened sometime this afternoon.

Nothing has been deleted or modified on my auction. If it had been there would be a note saying so. I won't be accused of being a crook or trying to pull a fast one. That's happened too many times to me. That is why I'm here commenting on this post. I have a reputation among many in the collecting community and I'm not going to let an eBay auction change that.

I'm getting out of collecting carbines and parts for this very reason. I finally have enough to satisfy me that I am certain of their authenticity. But the prevalence of fakes has really turned me off. 




Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 7:01pm
Glad this post helped someone. 

For those wondering about this particular sight’s authenticity, head over to the sale section on this forum. There is an FO B marked flip sight listed. It’s also a fake. Though it’s marked for a different manufacturer then the one on the eBay auction, the machining marks are identical. They both come from the same modern source and are as fake as a three-dollar bill.


Posted By: Bubba-7
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 9:46pm
  Twenty years ago I said,  "There will come a time when real parts will be called fake and fake parts will be called real."  I think we are about there.
The two flip rear sights discussed here, I believe both are real.
But what do I know?  Compared to some, I'm just a newbie to carbine collecting.
Where is Ten-o-cee when you really need him?


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 10:14pm
Rog, that was one of the first things you told me when I came to you asking for your help (Fake being called real and real being called fake). It is really unsettling for a relative newbie to the carbine world. 


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 10:38pm
People have been saying real is fake and fake is real for as long as I've been watching.

The ebay sight is fake. But you guys are giving away a lot of info that we paid quite a bit to gain for ourselves. 

The ebay fake sight that the seller hasn't removed, and probably won't, is selling for near the market price for a used reproduction like it is. 
 


-------------
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: dnewsom89
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 11:38pm
Again, I’m right here. I’m the seller. Anyway, as I said, I was fooled. I amended the auction and gave anyone who wanted out of their bids the opportunity. It’s staying posted, as a reproduction. 

I don’t know everything. I’ve saved hundreds of pictures of parts based on the research I’ve done. I’ve bought all the books. I’ve asked a lot of questions. Even then I make mistakes. And I own up to it. 

Regardless of the auction, it’s very off-putting to a lot of the younger and less knowledgeable folks (who I count myself a part of) when they ask if a part is real or fake. I know a lot of the experts put a lot of time and money into their knowledge base. And I get the reluctance to share info to prevent the fakers from getting better. But what happens when y’all aren’t around to ask anymore? All that’s left is reading a bunch of posts like this on old forums about someone’s opinion. And that’s why I’ve lost interest in this hobby. In 20-30 years no one is going to care. I hope this post helps someone one day but after the links go dead I doubt it will. 


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Aug 03 2022 at 11:53pm
The info helps. And it'll probably help beyond now. I didn't recheck your description so that's on me for not checking. 
BUT, since at the current price it's near what you can sell a reproduction for it's not a harm anyway. Someone told me those sights are about 145-165 new. 

Almost all reproduction sights have the same characteristics as that one.  The other most common reproductions are the fake IN B sights that are cast with no milling. 

Plenty of people know the tells fairly well and many of us will be around a good while. You can just ask us if it's WWII or not. 


-------------
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 12:23am
I'm curious, what characteristics make this sight an apparent reproduction? If this one is indeed fake, would someone be so kind as to post a photo of a legitimate Rockola flip sight so we'll have a comparison? 


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 12:34am
*sigh* smh.

-------------
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: Timothy
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 1:51am
Thanks Tennessee. I looked all over earlier tonight and found lots of stuff on ‘fake’ flip sights but little on the characteristics of ‘real’ . Appreciate your comments on cast vs machined, etc.

Ps. On a related note - In the future if anyone would be willing to discuss the backstory on the various Sunday Funnies: myself and undoubtably other newbies would appreciate it if we could learn a bit more instead of pondering. Happy to wait a bit to hear the punch line if needed. Just a suggestion.
Cheers
Tim


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T R


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 7:37am
Regarding authentic RO flip sights, if you visit the carbines of the collectors subforum page there are two original rifles posted near the top. I've also posted pictures of two original loose ones before, and those are just the ones that I remember this morning. There are good examples right on the forum. And lots that apply to any authentic flip sight.


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 9:27am
If you have seen and now know what fake ones look like, then you have much (most?) of what you need. The percentage of real Rock sights available is way, way low. Anyway, everything has been discussed on IDing on the forums for people to search and find. You just have to invest the time to educate yourself. There won't be any stickies about how to ID real and fake.

Be assured that people getting involved and watching forums are looking for better ways to fake Carbines to sucker other new people. 



-------------
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 11:27am
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

The info helps. And it'll probably help beyond now. I didn't recheck your description so that's on me for not checking. 
BUT, since at the current price it's near what you can sell a reproduction for it's not a harm anyway. Someone told me those sights are about 145-165 new. 

Almost all reproduction sights have the same characteristics as that one.  The other most common reproductions are the fake IN B sights that are cast with no milling. 

Plenty of people know the tells fairly well and many of us will be around a good while. You can just ask us if it's WWII or not. 


If I were rebel, I would remember this comment in particular and write it down somewhere. This is one of the clues I've been telling you about to look for in past threads.tenocee was kind enough to repost what has already been said in the past and information is easy to find, especially in this forum since all the pictures remain intact from years ago. Just got to put in a little bit of work which you'll be glad you did because you'll learn a lot more than your original question while researching.hth


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 4:57pm
Yep, I got them saved, along with several others. I have one carbine with real GE-Q I can study and get "hands on" with. 


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 5:21pm
I’ve maintained photo folders on my computer and phone for over a decade. Anytime I come across a good example of something on a forum, ebay, gunbroker, etc it gets saved. That practice has helped me tremendously over the years.

In recent times all these RTI carbines coming in from Ethiopia have provided some good content as far as original rear sights and interesting parts.


Posted By: dnewsom89
Date Posted: Aug 05 2022 at 12:13am
For the sake of the information in this thread, I am going to post the pictures I included in the auction. Hopefully this will help in the future as a reference to a fake. I did some more reading on other posts in various locations, as I should have done in the first place, and have found that this sight is consistent with those made by the infamous "George" of Riverbank Armory. They are all made the same way in regards to machining and staking of the pivot pin, and only vary in markings. This isn't the first time his crap has fooled me. I did not buy this sight from him and, while I don't recall where I got it, I was under the impression it was real. Never the less:














Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Aug 05 2022 at 1:58am
I think many of us have been fooled at one point or another. We all learn, sometimes from other's mistakes and often from our own. I too, have a small collection of fake flip sights that I bought from an early and prominent member of the Carbine Club who first lived in Michigan and later moved to Florida. His initials were F.P. He told a believable story about carbines that were stuck in Puerto Rico that couldn't be brought into the mainland, but small parts like flip sights and early barrel bands could be mailed in. I fell for the story early in my collecting career and bought a few flip sights and barrel bands.

I don't think George of Riverbank Armory actually makes his flip sights, I think they probably come from China or India. Perhaps the various markings are stamped here state side, but likely not.

All the real flip sights don't look alike, there were different suppliers in WWII. Fortunately, most of the repro flip sights fall into a few different varieties that often only differ by the stampings on the base and aperture / leaf.

Thanks for posting the pictures.


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Aug 05 2022 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by dnewsom89 dnewsom89 wrote:

For the sake of the information in this thread, I am going to post the pictures I included in the auction. Hopefully this will help in the future as a reference to a fake. I did some more reading on other posts in various locations, as I should have done in the first place, and have found that this sight is consistent with those made by the infamous "George" of Riverbank Armory. They are all made the same way in regards to machining and staking of the pivot pin, and only vary in markings. This isn't the first time his crap has fooled me. I did not buy this sight from him and, while I don't recall where I got it, I was under the impression it was real. Never the less:

  

 And once again, as we've seen before with other M1 Carbine parts on eBay that were said to be fakes, buyers either think said parts are not fake, they think they're "close enough", or they just don't care.

 Either way, kudos to dnewsom89, you did your due diligence in the description.  


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 06 2022 at 5:47pm
But at least it went for the right amount of money that a reproduction sight should, between $145 to $165. If that were a real Rockola sight, the bidding would have been at $400 Plus


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 8:23am
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

You can just ask us if it's WWII or not.

WWII or not?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185547420584?hash=item2b337cf3a8:g:5ywAAOSwqQ1jAsCW&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKVWZ%2Fgyn9j0g1ZWEnSDU2DgSNjYDU7YIPzwftcF35YVsmFdvAkNds4icd5F8wJJsZdlBbMjISG7vyjqOCuGC%2FQ3DJyplOn1fYi3sNi5jGu4IRk176XXhjfNa%2BZ8SlfUX8ppM4qQC9PIAYUkVXDGDdNWL2RgTAf0kU0zxklxwu6%2F%2Fwm%2BpC7LmsmR5BCn%2FfTCkWK8l0h97SPQsfOnyD6oa5Y%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CVlqrZYA" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/185547420584?hash=item2b337cf3a8:g:5ywAAOSwqQ1jAsCW&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKVWZ%2Fgyn9j0g1ZWEnSDU2DgSNjYDU7YIPzwftcF35YVsmFdvAkNds4icd5F8wJJsZdlBbMjISG7vyjqOCuGC%2FQ3DJyplOn1fYi3sNi5jGu4IRk176XXhjfNa%2BZ8SlfUX8ppM4qQC9PIAYUkVXDGDdNWL2RgTAf0kU0zxklxwu6%2F%2Fwm%2BpC7LmsmR5BCn%2FfTCkWK8l0h97SPQsfOnyD6oa5Y%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CVlqrZYA


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:11am
Same seller has another.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185547415814" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/185547415814


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:24am
Rezin, I also saw them and Have asked Tenocee about them. He stated he cannot tell by the pictures required. Personally, they dont look like the fakes I have seen but the GE-Q does not look like the GE-Q example I have. Anyone else have any idea? 


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:41am
Since the one on your carbine rebel has been declared real and if those on ebay don't match the one on your example with the exact same letter stamping, then I would lean toward fake but I am no expert on these by any means, just my guess. You have a great tool at your disposal having a known real one already in your possession


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 10:46am
I will take some clearer pictures of my sight when I get home. I got a new handy magnifying glass that makes stuff super clear. I will post the pictures around lunch! 


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Jond41403 Jond41403 wrote:

Since the one on your carbine rebel has been declared real and if those on ebay don't match the one on your example with the exact same letter stamping, then I would lean toward fake but I am no expert on these by any means, just my guess. You have a great tool at your disposal having a known real one already in your possession


Not true in all cases though. For example I know of two distinct styles of legit GE-Q lettering. There's also oddball stuff, I remember a member having an IN-B that didn't fit the norm but it sure looked original and there's no way I would have changed it. Sometimes markings are stronger, weaker, partial, etc. It's one indicator not a blanket judgement, IMO. Happy hunting.


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 11:33am
That's very true, that's why it's always a great idea to keep a picture montage if you're going to be buying these things.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 12:10pm
To me that sight looks like a real base combined with a fake aperture. That dark finish is throwing me off.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Aug 23 2022 at 1:59pm


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Aug 27 2022 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

He stated he cannot tell by the pictures required.

I bought the sight. Here is a link to some more pictures. (Pics too large to upload here.)
https://imgur.com/a/z9YYr7M" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/a/z9YYr7M












Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Aug 27 2022 at 3:51pm
I don't see any problems. But it's the other one that I couldn't see well. My phone screen is shattered and the eyesight is poor now. 

-------------
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Aug 27 2022 at 4:53pm
That sight is interesting. Compared to the two GE-Q sights I have, your base sure looks like it’s been media blasted and reparked. Both of mine have unmarked apertures. I can’t say I’ve seen a BR marked aperture on a GE-Q base. 


Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Aug 27 2022 at 5:07pm
the base is USGI, The Aperture is repro


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Aug 27 2022 at 8:20pm
agree with CK, base looks refinished. And the pin was out based on the left side pin hole + staking deformed.
agree with RC45, peep looks repro. Here's a side by side.



Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Sep 01 2022 at 8:55pm
Went ahead and purchased another rear sight on eBay. Looks similar to the other, same seller. Last two pics are side by side with the previous sight.

https://imgur.com/a/SQNRyrf" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/a/SQNRyrf


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Sep 01 2022 at 8:58pm
Also bought one outside of eBay. Happens to be attached...

https://imgur.com/a/InorIkX" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/a/InorIkX


Posted By: Rezin777
Date Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 10:17am
Two more "rockola" sights on eBay. I have been trying to learn as much as I can about rear sights since the start of this thread and I would say both of these are repos, although they are being described as "original".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225204827701?hash=item346f40f635:g:dqQAAOSwxkdjSNO5" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/225204827701?hash=item346f40f635:g:dqQAAOSwxkdjSNO5
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225204821670?hash=item346f40dea6:g:w74AAOSwe7NjSNFE" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/225204821670?hash=item346f40dea6:g:w74AAOSwe7NjSNFE

The seller has several other sights listed as well, I haven't bothered to look at those after seeing these misrepresented.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 10:20am
Yep, bad repros. Of all of the flip sights that guy has listed, I think only one “might” be real.



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