Print Page | Close Window

LC 52

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance
Forum Description: What to Check, Reloading, Tips for Accuracy, Competitive/Recreational Shooting
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6174
Printed Date: Oct 02 2023 at 8:14pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: LC 52
Posted By: Rebel92
Subject: LC 52
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 2:33pm
I have long heard about the infamous chinese copy cat of Lake City 52. A while back, I ordered some Lake City in bandoliers, and was headstamped LC 52. The bandolier had the correct markings on it indicating it was actual lake city so I was not concerned. A few months later, I bought some ammo from a guy online, and he said he was sending me all of his carbine ammo, which included about 20-30 loose rounds, either PPU Soft point and about 5-6 lake city, again LC52. Didnt look like reloads to me, so i shot them. I have also shot a bandolier of the LC 52. Today, when trimming cases, I noticed that the headstamps on both are different (to me anyways). Can anyone tell me if it is a machine difference, or did I run into some "fake" lake city? See pics of the diff headstamps. 





Replies:
Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 3:10pm
I'm no expert but it's supposed to come down to usgi has one flash hole and fake Chinese has two


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 3:12pm
That was my understanding as well, until I read where someone on the CMP forum from an old thread said that the chinese stuff can "be pulled and reloaded" and I do not know of very many people (or any) who go through the trouble of reloading berdan primed ammo.. 


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 3:27pm
Hopefully someone that knows exactly the differences will chime in here pretty soon. It was quite a while back when I read about it and the flash holes is all that I remembered but you may be on to something with the different font sizes on the headstamp. I can't remember if anyone mentioned differences in head stamps or not. I will say the traces of primer sealer is a good sign though that they are usgi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 3:58pm
Look on GB, there is a bunch of the Chinese LC 52 listed, some of the listings have pictures of the headstamps.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:01pm
I see that. The one that most closely resembles the headstamps of the chinese stuff on GB is the one I was sure was actual LC (the one on the right in my picture)


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:20pm
if it is not berdan primed I am thinking they just kept making them and switched over to boxer?
there were many reports of corrosive LC52

I have been looking for a box of Chinese made but  everyone is selling as USA


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:24pm
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/931540668" rel="nofollow - 30 carbine Chinese corrosive display collector - Rifle Ammunition at GunBroker.com : 931540668

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:51pm
I do not see the difference. What do I have? which one is actual (or both?) ???


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:58pm
Lake City ammo has red primer sealant. the Chinese does not.
LC is stamped heavier.
if you look at the rim it should be a little different shaped.
The bullet has a different curve to it, but very hard to tell

every picture I have seen they were Berdan prime. Recently I heard claims of non corrosive Chinese LC52, If yours were not sealed, and not Berdan primed then that suggests a change


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:59pm
The case that looks most like the chinese copy listed for sale on GB was literally in bandoliers when I bought it, did he go through the trouble just to pass of the chinese copy as the real thing???


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 5:01pm
So the one on the right in my picture would be the copy? That was the one that came in the bandoliers lol. 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 5:05pm
the one on the right looks to be LC


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 5:08pm
Thanks! so the one on the left would be a copy?? 

And now I am curious to see some LC52 COPY that was berdaned primed?


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 9:00pm
Seems like some good info and pictures here:
Carbine ammo question http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=91809" rel="nofollow - https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=91809

and some more here
http://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/yet-another-30-carbine-headstamp-questian/6181/11" rel="nofollow - https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/yet-another-30-carbine-headstamp-questian/6181/11
where it is said that when compared side by side there are slight differences in the shape.


edit:
Charlie has saved a number of those photos full size here:
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/lc-72-case-marked_topic5182.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/lc-72-case-marked_topic5182.html



Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 9:08pm
Thanks Matt. 

But mine with a different headstamp is boxer primed. I am lost


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 9:15pm
I'm seeing at several differences mentioned.
1. is the berdan primed.  Is this an absolute?  Im not sure.
2. is the powder and the bullet shape.  Well that's no help to you here.
3. is  if the sealant was clear - although not sure that's a help here but we're not seeing red residue.
4. is that the angle or chamfer of the casing where it joins the head is different.   So maybe a side by side comparison of your cases with a known cases will look different (if chinese) or not.

From Charlie's post, in this picture the neck where the extractor grabs looks longer.

I think what you and I were first looking at, the lettering may also be a clue.  That I'm not sure about, but its seems to me the L in the Chinese LC is a little cockeyed.

Neither L or the 5 on your shells look like the Chinese made L & 5 stamps in the photo above.  Look at how the bottom of the Chinese 5 is scrunched up.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 03 2022 at 3:23pm
here is a side by side of the 2 with different font headstamps both LC 52 




Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: May 03 2022 at 4:29pm
I'm starting to wonder if there's just two font styles of USGI LC 52 brass. Both look to have usgi characteristics to me even though the fonts are different. Again I'm no expert but I'd be curious if one of the forum members who has a lot of known real LC 52 would look through them to see if they have different fonts or not.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 03 2022 at 4:47pm
Here is another CMP thread on the Chinese LC 52 ammo. 
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=40088" rel="nofollow - LC52 carbine ammo BERDAN!?!? - CMP Forums (thecmp.org)


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 9:49am
Here is another page on the Chinese LC 52 which shows a cut away case with the berdan anvil

http://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm

It might be better to take pictures of your cases on their sides and as straight on as possible to see if the case is shaped differently.

 


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 10:32am
Thanks Dan, I had not seen that article before. 

It is just baffling to me that neither of the cases marked LC52 are not berdan primed (only have one flash hole) and have different headstamps. I dont know what I should do with them, to be honest. 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

I dont know what I should do with them, to be honest. 

If they are for sure not Berdan primed, I'd say shoot them. As Jond41403 said, maybe just a case of 2 different legit headstamps during that timeframe at Lake City. 


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 12:09pm
Thanks Wayne. Will all Berdan primed cases have 2 flash holes? Though I read that not all will have 2.. but I am not sure how accurate that was. Is there another way to tell, other than the flash hole (1 vs 2)? 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 12:17pm
Not 100% sure, I had always thought that all berdan primed had 2 flash holes, I did read that post on one of the links above that said some berdan primed only had one hole, but the hole is not centered. 

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 12:51pm
I have had Berdan cases show up in factory Boxer ammo, overseas stuff. You never know until you try and decap one with a sizing die.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 5:32pm
aint nothing every simple and easy is it? 


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: May 04 2022 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

aint nothing every simple and easy is it? 


It's as easy as a sealed LC spam can ;) I haven't seen those faked yet. But not so easy to find anymore!


Posted By: Sawbones
Date Posted: May 10 2022 at 6:38pm
Back in ~1989 I bought a USGI green ammo box full of M1 Garand rounds all neatly packed in 8 round clips w/ the paper covering over them.  Headstamped "LC 62 MATCH".  Red primer sealant present.  Comparison of the headstamps on the Garand cartridges with those of Rebel's carbine cartridges reveals: 
1) Light stamping on Garand similar to that on the headstamp on left of Rebel's carbine rounds.
2)  The letter 'C' on Garand round is almost closed as in Rebel's carbine round on the left.
However:
3)  The number '2' on the Garand round more closely resembles that on Rebel's round on the RIGHT.  If you look closely at the Rebel round on the right the straight horizontal part on the bottom of the number '2' appears to protrude out farther than the curved part of the '2' above it.  That is evident on my Garand round.

Are we all confused now?
I'm fixin' to have a beer and forget about it. 


-------------
You can't fool all of the people all of the time.....but it isn't necessary. Will Rogers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 11 2022 at 8:52am
Yep confused.  I’m gonna reload it, then Imma shoot it and hope I don’t explode. 


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 21 2022 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

http://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/yet-another-30-carbine-headstamp-questian/6181/11" rel="nofollow - https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/yet-another-30-carbine-headstamp-questian/6181/11
where it is said that when compared side by side there are slight differences in the shape.

https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm
See the second photo and description in the article linked above.
Currently for sale as real Lake City.  Thumbs Down  Fortunately the seller shows the box. 
https://www.mmiammo.com/products/lake-city-usgi30c-usgi30c-usgi30c-5392" rel="nofollow - https://www.mmiammo.com/products/lake-city-usgi30c-usgi30c-usgi30c-5392
Probably a good image to save to everyone's Chinese LC52 file. 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Dec 21 2022 at 11:03pm
Good link, Matt. I will save that for sure for future reference. 

Guess I should have updated y’all on what I learned. I shot some of both, it all went bang and I still have all my fingers. Also have reloaded some, and it did not break my sizing die so I reckon it was ok!


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 21 2022 at 11:20pm
I'm now sure the bottom half of the 5 on the casings you posted are not the same shape as the fake 5.

Check out the additional article I just added above -
This one https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm

Apparently the PRC (communist-China) casings are about 4 grains lighter than Lake City.
Also very difficult to remove the primers.

PS. With the maryland munitions webpage, either download the photo and/or open its own window (rt click) and its much larger with more detail.
With the Oldammo article, right click and open the photos will also lead to larger photos.


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Dec 22 2022 at 6:26am
On occasion I will run across a piece of Berdan primed commie brass mixed-in with Boxer primed brass. The stuff shoots just fine and I only realize it when I start to decap it.

(Sort of a duplicate post I think. Old age kicking-in.)


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 22 2022 at 9:20am
Maybe its a duplicate but its good to mention it again since the stuff is apparently on the market again.   If its true that it was manufactured to resupply their allies, then it ought to be safe to be shoot.  If it was just a copycat effort to make money, then all bets off.   Your experience at least indicates its probably OK stuff. 

Buyers should know its not Lake City; but is Berdan primed, and possibly corrosive.
In my opinion its not nearly as valuable as in-spec commerical or military ammo.


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: Dec 22 2022 at 12:13pm
I agree it's not as valuable as USGI ammo, but would probably be wise to put back a small amount of them just as a collectible. They will start drying up eventually as everything else does. Back in the day I was lucky enough to realize that black talons were going to go away and dry up so I bought quite a few boxes of them before they did. It is unbelievable now what a box of 20 of those go for, regardless of the caliber


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 22 2022 at 12:18pm
I agree. I have been looking for a box and cannot bring myself to pay the real LC price.

Thinking about it, anyone have spent cases?


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jan 16 2023 at 9:04pm
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/966624075" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/966624075

Some more going for non Chinese prices 



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net