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Odd hand guard *Caution*

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Infrared Scopes and Equipment, Night Vision
Forum Description: Sniperscope, Snooperscope, Metascopes, T3 carbines
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6007
Printed Date: Apr 19 2024 at 5:40pm
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Topic: Odd hand guard *Caution*
Posted By: New2brass
Subject: Odd hand guard *Caution*
Date Posted: Jan 28 2022 at 10:50pm
I have had several people contact me in the past few days about an odd hand guard that is being sold as a "Model T3?"



The sellers story :
original WW2 M1 Carbine handguard marked IO for Inland Overton. It has 4 rivets and has the back trimmed down a bit to adapt a scope. This came from the collection of a late friend of my father, and he had it labeled as a rare handguard for a Model T3 Carbine. I honestly don't know whether it is or not.

Well as far as I can find it had nothing to do with the T3 carbine or its development.
The baseline for the first infrared scope the US mounted to a weapon was the Type D prototype designed by RCA. The NDRC designation was the K2
Here it is on a T3 carbine

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/IRM1.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/IRM1.html

As you can see the front lens needs no clearance. The hand guard was however relieved for a strap to hold on the IR light source. If you moved it back further then there would be interface with the magazine.

Then came the M1 Sniperscope which had the T-120 telescope. The T3 carbine was an accessory to the sniperscope.



As you can see the front lens is is much bigger but does not require clearance. Also it sits far more forward than the hand guard in question.

Next was the M2 Sniperscope on the T3 carbine
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/IRM2.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/IRM2.html

The strap makes the lens look closer than it actually sits, but you can see that, like the M1 Sniperscope, the lens sits further forward than the hand guard in question.

The nomenclature on the packaging is for M1 carbine hand guard. Rock Island was also not involved with the T3 production of the infrared scopes. The question quickly asked is if it was some form of prototype.
Notice the hand guard has 4 rivets. The T3 carbine predates the 4 rivet hand guard.

I am sure many of you are far more familiar with the http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/IRM3.html" rel="nofollow - M3 Sniperscope , which was contracted in 1950. This would work on a T3 or M1, M2 carbine with an adapter mount. The front hand guard needs to be modified so the barrel clamp can go through the hand guard, but this is at the front of the hand guard


If you look at the hand guard in question you will notice the flat is cut at an angle from the right side at the rivet holes to the left removing portions of the rivet holes.

It was speculated that it may have been for the Vietnam era AN/PAS-4 scope also known as the P-155 as there is a reticle adjustment that hangs low and would be in the proximity of the hand guard cut.
This scope was tested on several different firearms including the M1/M1 carbine. It was used on the M14 and the M16 rifles.

All of the mountings hung the scope off centered to left of the firearm. We have only seen a drawing of the mount and no actual mount has ever been reported.

To give you an idea of how it would sit on a carbine.

Please note it would not be on a T3 carbine as shown

As you can see it does not interfere with the hand guard and what is not so obvious is that it hands to the left of the rivet holes.

I can say the hand guard has nothing to do with the T3 carbine, but I can see how someone not familiar with a T3 might believe it did, until they put a scope on one.

I am open to suggestions as to what it might be.
It seems that a few people were willing to blindly throw bids in for it. Maybe they know something that we do not.
Maybe one day will will have an answer to this interesting hand guard, until then it is a third party story with no backing.




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Replies:
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 28 2022 at 11:53pm
Bubba did it, when you JB weld a scope to a receiver without any mount it sits lower. 

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: choprboy
Date Posted: Jan 29 2022 at 2:19am
The part number, B212602, shows up in TM9-1276 (p.85) as the upper hand guard for the M1A1, with the regular M1 hand guard being part number C57145. Possibly something to do with a prototype scout scope mounted on a M1A1?


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 29 2022 at 8:48am
From the latest revision in the Nicolaus ordnance drawings
The hand guard is an assembly 6212602.  This was originally B212602. See the BIll Ricca pages on http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/ricca_Ordnance_Drawing_Numbers.html" rel="nofollow - numbers, numbers, numbers

The hand guard assembly consisting of the
guard 5557145 (C57145)
liner   5196439 (A196439)
rivets 5196452 (A196452)

Ordnance did tests with a standard optical scope and called the setup the http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/modelT3.html" rel="nofollow - M1E7 It was not adopted, but was the basis for the T3 carbine with a few minor changes.
An conventional scope is certainly narrower than any of the IR scopes. You could not drop any of the scopes closer to the receiver due to the issue with cartridge extraction and probably why the AN/PAS-4 is offset.




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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 08 2022 at 8:01am
And the questions are rolling in again! Seems the first buyer returned it. Not to worry, there is no short supply of people throwing money at this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/304347920688?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11011.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=d6f657bbb249453889c451d7e2e941df&bu=43192009963&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220207050809&segname=11011&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/304347920688?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11011.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=d6f657bbb249453889c451d7e2e941df&bu=43192009963&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220207050809&segname=11011&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid


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Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Feb 13 2022 at 6:24pm
And the lucky buyer this time got it for $74.89 plus $16.10 shipping. 

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 13 2022 at 7:15pm
I guess if you can afford a T3 it is chump change. Will be interesting to see if it ever shows up on one for sale! Clown

There was at least 2 repeat bidders.



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