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Underwood serial number 28901xxx

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5819
Printed Date: Mar 28 2024 at 8:57pm
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Topic: Underwood serial number 28901xxx
Posted By: rynegold
Subject: Underwood serial number 28901xxx
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:52am
could I possibly use a recoil plate marked DI on this rifle? Also it has a high wood stock and I'm not sure that goes with this serial number but it is an Underwood stock.

Any help appreciated,
                   Regards, Mitch



Replies:
Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 12:19pm
Hey, Mitch. I'm assuming your Underwood is in the two million range.

I believe it should have a Type 2 or Type 3, marked either ".U." or "AU" in order to be correct for that serial range. A Type 2 (high wood with oval oiler) is feasible.


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Eric
NRA Life Member
NRA-Certified RSO
Project Appleseed “Rifleman”

When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!"


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 12:26pm
Keep in mind, Inland did transfer recoil plates to Underwood on three different occasions last transfer of 3000 being 12/21/1943.

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Keep in mind, Inland did transfer recoil plates to Underwood on three different occasions last transfer of 3000 being 12/21/1943.

In which case a DI-marked recoil plate is certainly not out of the question.


-------------
Eric
NRA Life Member
NRA-Certified RSO
Project Appleseed “Rifleman”

When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!"


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 12:49pm
Hi Mitch and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!

Inland transferred over 5,000 recoil plates to Underwood prior to the likely manufacturing date of your carbine, so I would say it's possible that it could be original. An earlier part can often be found on a later serial number. Also, this could happen with the stock as well since during wartime we cannot assume that care was taken to ensure earlier parts were used up before later parts were available (FIFO). I would not assume these parts are not original.    

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JackP


Posted By: Oldboy53
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 1:14pm
First off, welcome to the Club! Secondly, you might have too many x's in your s/n. 

    So, the s/n spread sheets masterfully put together by Jackp1028 (search 'Serial Number Spread Sheets' in 'USCarbineCal30.com' search block, above) puts your carbine 'probable made by date' at Feb 44. 

    As far as the DI recoil plate, pgs. 375 and 376 of 'War Baby' shows that Inland did send recoil plates to Underwood on several occasions, the last being 12-21-43. So yeah, I suppose you could use it. 

    And, about the high wood stock. More info on the markings on it would help narrow down it's probable made by date. Crossed cannons, UEF/GHD, each in a box or not, both in a rectangle together on the right side; M-U, P-U, LW on the left side in the slingwell; several variations of this throughout production.

    Anyway, pictures posted here are the best way for those members much more knowledgeable than this recruit to answer your questions. 

    Again, welcome to the Club, hope you find all the answers you're looking for. But be careful, these Carbines are addicting!Wink I now own six!Confused


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GSMC(SW),USN
2/77-11/89


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 9:01pm
thanks for the info and replies! I'll post some pics in the morning. One reason I ask is because the recoil plate, and the receiver match in terms of finish. This gun's got a beautiful crown on the muzzle and looks to have been used very little. The rear sight is unmarked.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 28 2021 at 12:15pm
Serial numbers were not assembled in strict order.
Underwood worked on the 4 million block after the one million block. Then they went to the 2 million block. At the end of production they worked on the remainder of the 4 million block.

Barrel date is key. That serial range I would expect a barrel dated 9-43 to possibly 4-44

Pics would help


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Oct 28 2021 at 4:31pm
Mitch,
Do you still have the Davidson Import 
National Postal Meter that had the serial number stamped on the front receiver ring?
I remember it from your post on Milsurps:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=68672" rel="nofollow - https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=68672

Pictured here:



That was a nice Carbine.

Welcome,

Charlie-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 28 2021 at 6:30pm
Hello Charlie! yes I still have that carbine... It's the nicest wood of any I own. So here is an album on Flickr of this Underwood rifle. When I got it the stock on it was marked LW for lum woodworking I assume, and was perhaps a wartime replacement stock. All the parts are right on the gun as far as being Underwood goes, and I got the stock pictured and thought it looked nicer for the rifle than the one it came with. The barrel date is December of 43. The barrel band and sight and mag catch are the ones the rifle came with. It had a push button safety but marked inland and I put an underwood one on it. Here is the album:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/D9c2xv" rel="nofollow - https://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/D9c2xv


Edit: now that I look at that lum woodworking stock, it not only has an underwood recoil plate, but an underwood butt plate as well. Could this have been original? Here are some pics of that stock:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/19089828@N00/sets/72157720084440756/" rel="nofollow - https://www.flickr.com/photos/19089828@N00/sets/72157720084440756/

http://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/f747u2" rel="nofollow - https://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/f747u2

For some reason you may have to cut and paste the URLs above to get to my lunb woodworking album. 


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 7:32am

Still trying to get this link to work..


https://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/3WPr79%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.flickr.com/gp/19089828@N00/3WPr79 .  


Ok this one works. 


Posted By: HammerGrunt
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 8:29am
Absolutely beautiful wood grain in that buttstock! 

Your underwood Buttplate looks like several others that have been recently reported and are slightly different looking than other underwood diagonal grid buttplates.


Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 11:17am
Now that is one pretty piece of walnut. It has a nice straight grain that seems to go all the way from front to back! The walnut is almost too pretty for a military gun stock!

-------------
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 4:10pm
Lol!  So.... what should I do? Put the Lumb Woodworking stock back on it? w/the Underwood recoil plate? Or will my Underwood U.E.F. marked high wood stock work as well or better?, as correct for this serial #?

Opinions appreciated.

                            Regards, mitch


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 5:27pm
Opinion:  That later UEF cartouche, HW, oval stock COULD be correct for that 2.89mil s/n and 12/43 barrel date.  The 12/43 barrel date is consistent with that s/n.

“Proper” or “correct” on Underwoods in the 2nd and 3rd blocks (the s/n in the 2 and 4mil ranges) is very hard to make hard and fast rules about. The 1st block (1.35mil to 1.44mil) and the 4th block (the 6mils) are much easier to draw conclusions from.

Underwood subcontracted receivers in the 2.3mil to 2.7mil in their assigned serial ranges to Intertype, Universal Winding, United Shoe Machinery Co., and Singer.  At the same time, Underwood was completing the 2.7mil to 2.8mil as well as the 4mil.  Underwood, once the subcontracted receivers were received, worked this into the mix.  So, the 2nd and 3rd blocks were all being worked in no specific serial range all at the same time, as stuff was available.

Many of the subcontracted receivers (2.3 through the 2.6) were not put together until the fall of 43 and into January 1944. I have 2 subcontracted rifles (W and a B) that both appear (as far as can be told) to have their original HW, oval stocks, with the later UEF cartouche. barrel dates are 11/43 and 12/43.

I have a 2.83mil (never touched or messed with….no such thing as 100%, so I am 99% absolute original) that has a 2/1944 barrel date and a LW, oval, late cartouche stock.

So…since your HW stock has the late UEF cartouche….then it was of the absolute latest production HW stocks. The HW oval stocks with the earlier cartouche appeared to have ended at some point in the summer months and MAY have made it to some 2.3mil Intertype receivers…but it is all “May”. The end of the first block (1.35-1.44) were done in the summer at some point.

So…my opinion is that your carbine “likely” could have had a HW or LW oval with the later cartouche.

I just made these statements from memory….so, feel free to whip me with some Ruth or *Riesch.

Chad



-------------
Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 6:52pm
Thanks for the input Chad! Those are some things I should consider. I started collecting carbines before anybody understood all of the particulars about their manufacturer and the timing during the war when things were put together. Anyway, it's a nice rifle with a perfect crown! What do you think about my unmarked safety? Is that a possibility? Or is it wrong for this rifle. It was on there when I got it.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 6:53pm
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/underwood-subcontractors-az_topic5317.html%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/underwood-subcontractors-az_topic5317.html

the above discusses LW stocks.
Lumb had a contract to make spares.

If your LW stock had the Underwood CC then it would have been used by Underwood very late. I would expect a 2-44 to 4-44 barrel.
Your LW stock does not appear to be sanded enough to remove a CC.

two things stick out, the trigger group with dogleg hammer is out of place and I would expect a fabricated trigger housing.

I am not sure that Underwood ever used the type 2 band.

Looks like you have a nice little stable of carbines going there!


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 8:49pm
I dug most of them out of the safe today to have a look... It is a potpourri if ever there was one! Most from over the 30 years I've collected them. I couldn't remember what the heck I had so a look-see was in order. The Un-Quality and the Underwood not pictured... Two of these I actually acquired from thie service person that brought them back disassembled in there duffle bag (a common occurrence)... 

https://flic.kr/p/2mFgcuJ" rel="nofollow - https://flic.kr/p/2mFgcuJ


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 10:25pm
in my above discussion, I was referring to “HW” for high wood and “LW” for low wood….not “Lumb Woodworking”.  Yes, Underwood use of Lumb Woodworking stocks is a different issue.  I guess I should have explained my use of “LW”.

As far as your safety, I am not aware of Underwood ever having or using a marked safety. They should be unmarked. I’d have to check Ruth to see whether a T2 or T3 safety for that 1/44 build timeframe, but I think it would be a T3 push safety, unmarked.


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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Oct 31 2021 at 1:54pm
So in looking at my how would stock, have noticed the repair there on the left hand side of the receiver... There's also one up on the right hand side for the barrel band. But this one on the side of the receiver, is apparently walnut wood, but would that be an arsenal repair? Also here is a link to the three handguards I can select from... The one closest to the rifle is the best match, in terms of condition and wood tone.

https://flic.kr/p/2mFDSDp" rel="nofollow - https://flic.kr/p/2mFDSDp

https://flic.kr/p/2mFF1NL" rel="nofollow - https://flic.kr/p/2mFF1NL

https://flic.kr/p/2mFF4ND" rel="nofollow - https://flic.kr/p/2mFF4ND

https://flic.kr/p/2mFHign" rel="nofollow - https://flic.kr/p/2mFHign


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Oct 31 2021 at 4:33pm
What stock and hand guard was on that rifle when it came into your possession?

Hard to comment on whether the repairs are Arsenal repairs or not.  The stock does not have any Arsenal rebuild stamps, does it?  I suppose that could be a unit or depot level armorer’s repair if not an actual arsenal.  Could just have been a prior owner?

As far as your hand guards, I have a hard time telling shallow groove from deep groove sometimes without looking at the depth of wood on the end above the riveted mounting plate.  Of course, deeper grooves are supposed to have been the earlier hand guards and then transitioned to shallow because of potential to crack with the thinner wood in the deeper groove.

In your case, all of your hand guards are for UEF, so I’d use whichever one fits and matches the stock the best. Doesn’t really matter if it’s a PU or an MU.  Additionally, since it is a high wood stock, oval cut (Type II) - IMHO, doesn’t matter whether a deep or shallow groove. If it were a T1 stock, I’d say that a deep groove would likely be best and if it were a T3 stock, I’d go with a shallow groove.  Like said before, a 2nd block UEF can kind of have some transitional early and later parts based on how Underwood was putting them together and when.

Also mentioned above, since your barrel date is 12/43, your carbine was likely assembled in 1/44-2/44, but that is also a bit of conjecture and is based on how the trends appeared from barrel manufacture until actual carbine assembly.

Carbine “correctness” is difficult for all of them.  With lateral support between all of them, much of which has been documented, it makes it difficult. It is just so much harder to apply any absolute rule of “correctness” to those 2nd block Underwoods based on reasons already mentioned.

I would almost say…if that Lumb Woodworking stock was on there 30 whatever years ago when you got the rifle, then there is a good chance that the rifle may have come from UEF with that Lumb stock on it.  Some were marked “LW” in the sling cut and some were marked “LW-U”.  You can look at Dan’s reference to the Lumb stocks above.  “LW” were supposed to be replacement stocks and then the “LW-B” for IBM and the “LW-U” for Underwood….but sure have seen a lot of just “LW” marked stocks on Underwood rifles for them all to be replacements. 


-------------
Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: rynegold
Date Posted: Nov 02 2021 at 7:35pm
Thanks pingjocky! The LW marked stock was how it came to me 



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