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Range Results

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance
Forum Description: What to Check, Reloading, Tips for Accuracy, Competitive/Recreational Shooting
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5139
Printed Date: Sep 23 2023 at 7:56pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Range Results
Posted By: Matt_X
Subject: Range Results
Date Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 6:18pm
Last week I found out my local indoor range allows carbines.  It's only 25 yards but its also alot closer than the closest state range.

So.  I scaled and printed the 25 yard sighting target, and drew up a reduced 'A' 10" bullseye target.
Three goals for this session. 
1. See that it fires without issues.  1 round in the chamber. None in magazine.
2. Bench rest two 7 shot groups at the sighting target.
This got modified to 1 off hand and 6 shots bench rest.  Then 7 shots off hand.
(The bench was too low and I wasn't comfortable shooting that way.  Next time we'll raise it)
3. See how I do on the 'A' targets off hand.
4. (yea I know I said three. Get familiar with running the gun and work on good habits.) 

Had one failure to feed which may have related to my loading the magazine off the strip clip.

Groups were OK but seemed like I was losing focus, just a little, and need to work my skills. 











Replies:
Posted By: 68coupe
Date Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 7:44pm
Flip sight or adjustable?

-------------
Karl, 68 coupe
NPM, 43
Universal, 80
Kahr 1827-A1 Thompson 2019
SA M1 Garand 42
AO 1911A1
Taurus PT1911
Beretta M92(compact)


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Had one failure to feed which may have related to my loading the magazine off the strip clip.

Not sure using a stripper clip to load a magazine would have anything to do with a failure to feed? 


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 9:41pm
Thanks so much for posting your range results. It's nice to se someone shooting their carbine!


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 11:02pm
Flip sight.  Although I have been planning to replace the leaf spring, decided to put that off.

Strip clip loading.  I'm not sure either.  Since it was my first time with everything.  The range had no .30 carbine ammo so I brought some of the Korean I bought last fall.  A couple of the guys at the range/gun store have carbines themselves but they were pretty busy.

Posting. You're welcome!  It's fun to shoot.   I definately plan to shoot it more.  I think the state game land range will likely allow shooting from sitting, kneeling, and prone.  

While cleaning the carbine I found the recoil plate was rather loose.  That may have contributed to my groups spreading.    Although I really think it was mostly me.

Be interested in what targets people use.  I liked the idea of a target similar to the military qualification target.  I figured that would provide appropriate sized bullseye as well as a goal for scoring.




Posted By: shadycon
Date Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 8:01am
Hi and welcome; since I have a 100yd range in my back woods we have fun with frozen beer/soda cans.Clap


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M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!!


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 10:23am
Originally posted by shadycon shadycon wrote:

Hi and welcome; since I have a 100yd range in my back woods we have fun with frozen beer/soda cans.Clap

Empty beer cans I presume?😆


Posted By: Uncle Mike
Date Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 10:39am
Hi, what ammo? regards, Mike


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 12:41pm
Korean surplus ball that had been for sale last year (at a steadily climbing price).


Posted By: lacrosse13bb
Date Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 12:24am
Nice honest post about your session! Makes me want to go shoot!


Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 2:07am
Looks like you had fun at the range.

I use a variety of targets. Some I buy or print out. But being retired I'm on a budget so I repurpose paper plates and used pizza boxes. I love shooting steel and have several types of metal targets. I like the sound they make when I tag them.LOL I live next to a golf course and collect a bunch of stray balls that I shoot. It's fun to see them fly when hit.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 4:49pm
Hitting golf balls is impressive! 
Cheap is good :)  At least on stuff that's going to get thrown away.

This was the thread at CMP discussing WW2 and later  and qualification.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=135497" rel="nofollow - WW2 marksmanship levels: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=135497

The statement about a pay incentive Marines who qualified as Sharpshooter and Expert got my attention. My dad qualified as sharpshooter on rifle (June '43) and I'm sure that extra pay was valued.  Oddly AFAIK he never was trained or qualified on either the carbine or pistol.

And this one had some excerpts showing WW2 and later targets.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11545" rel="nofollow - 5V targets: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11545


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 04 2021 at 10:11pm
Range Day 5 March 2021.
Outdoors. 100 yards.
Wind fairly calm at first then picking up fairly strong  from the NW  (left to right).  No flags at the range but forcast was for wind in the 10 to 20 mph range.  I did not attempt to compensate. 

Part 1.
Warmed up with prone, slow fire.   Army A 5V Centers with 12" bullseyes
Seemed to be hitting low when using 6'o'clock hold.
The binoculars I brought were inadequate to see hits on the bullseye. 

Next was a home made sighting target.
Plan was 7 rounds with the sight set for 100 yard. then 7 rounds with the sight flipped for 300 yard.
Good news was pushing of the rear sight to the left after last session brought the shots on center.
Vertically the top of front sight seems pretty much to be point of impact.  I can live with that. 

However when I went to change magazines (range rules are 6 rounds max) , I noticed the rear sight had flipped to 300 yards.  Soooo, that probably explains why there's only 5 shots at the bottom of the target.

Leaving it for 300 placed next 7 above the target.

While waiting for the other shooters to get done and call clear, I let my buddy shoot a couple magazines.  I think that's why there are more than 14 shots on this target.  My fault I forgot to flip the site back to 100 yards and I didn't notice until he was just finishing.... whoops!



More later.  need to finish cleaning.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 05 2021 at 9:42am
part 2.
This was my attempt to run the 100 yard qualification tests from Table III of the field manual.
I was about 15 seconds overtime on 4 rounds standing, change magazine 4 rounds sitting.
And I was about 10 seconds overtime for the standing to kneeling.
Scores were consistantly 19 out of 20, but they wouldn't have been on WW2 era 10" bullseye 'A' targets.
All shots from this test are circled in blue


Green and umarked holes were from reuse of the targets but the targets started flapping around so many of those were shots attmpted when the target was momentarily still.  Sometimes just got to roll with the situation...

Had the second failure to feed when sitting on the second, aborted, run on the left side targets.

Another issue that probably should be addressed is the recoil plate slightly loosened.  Before disassembly for cleaning there was full turn of the screw before it felt snugged.


Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: Mar 05 2021 at 9:49am
That's some pretty good shooting!Clap
I'd be happy with those results.  


Posted By: DonFlynn
Date Posted: Mar 05 2021 at 10:29am
Sounds like a good start. 1 FTF I would say do another test and see. Worst case IMO you might need new springs. I had similar issues with a Plainfield carbine I bought last summer. new springs seem to have fixed the issue (I installed a new extractor also just to cover my bases)


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 07 2021 at 10:30pm
Thanks guys.  I don't have the sort of experience with centerfire to compare.  Its one reason I thought using the 100 yard qualification tests would be a good place to start.  

Been thinking about the shots hitting low.  Is there any way that could happen if both front and rear sight are original to the reciever and barrel?   I'm thinking this probably is a clue this is not the front sight it was zeroed with at the factory.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 11 2021 at 6:42pm
Ashamed of you guys.....  Disapprove

No tips on Barrel hang ?
No tips on Recoil Plate to Receiver lock up ?
Barrel Band fit ?
Recoil Plate coming loose during shooting sessions ?

I'll wager the man can tighten those groups by a minimum 30%

@ Matt_X......  PM Sent  Thumbs Up

Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 11 2021 at 7:03pm
What Charlie said, but never discount a bent barrel. I recently had one that I almost started to mechanic on some sights b4 I went to the trouble to check the barrel. Tweaking or maladjustment of sights can correct a slight bend, but bent enough, and you will never get it right. I would almost wager there are many carbines out there with bent barrels compensated for by sight adjustments. 


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 11 2021 at 7:36pm
2011

NRA 50' Slow Fire Target

Shot from 50yrds

Top right circled shot by Dad standing.
Rest shot by my Daughter benched.

 



And ending the day with a S&W Model 19 .357




Then off to Parris Island



Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 6:00am
Pretty sure she proved the barrel on that carbine isn’t bent. Maybe Charlie’s eyes are?


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 8:51am
Barrel hang seemed good.
I'm going to make a work rack to hold the carbine and then can check this more carefully.

I've been a little concerned about crushing the woodwhen tightening the recoil plate.  The wood under the plate looks OK.  But the threaded escutcheon is recessed and thats what felt like it might have some give.  

I can eyeball the barrel to see if there is any obvious bend.  Removing it from the reciever is well above my grade or equipment here.



Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 9:22am
Charlie, enjoyable range photos. Thanks. Your daughter shoots well. I'm sure you are very proud of her. Glad to see she joined the right branch, too. Wink
As the weather gets nicer, I need to dig my two carbines out and get them to the range.



Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Pretty sure she proved the barrel on that carbine isn’t bent. Maybe Charlie’s eyes are?

@Floyd,

I have to laugh because I remember rattling off that mag .. Circled Group.. As fast as I could pull.
When I looked at the group as I set it on the bench for her. I slid the peep down to the 100yrd setting.
After her getting a feel for the trigger break and seeing her hits.
She made her corrections and put pretty much everything else in the black.
I started her shooting rim fires at age 7. 

I think she would have had better results had I not had her shooting some slugs 1st from a Rem 870 12ga.
She's very skilled with her hand guns. The target she's posed next to was shot from 35yrds with .38Spl 158 gr SWC  and .357 Mag loads. Shot standing and kneeling. She complained that they didn't print the same. I was mixing the loads around and sometimes put in a snap cap to catch her flinching.

No fear in her, she was a Nationally Ranked Equestrian in College and before that a Multi State Champion in Barrel racing, Western Reining and English Dressage.
I was very proud of her accomplishments but I sure don't miss the $$ Costs.
The horses are the cheapest expenditure after you figure in all the different saddles, tack, show gear, practice gear, travel expenses, horse trailers and motor home... etc + Hospital bills- See below-
I was nearly stomped to Death by a Thoroughbred of hers I was leading in to the barn along with his pasture mate when a trespassers gun shot rang out and spooked 'Big Will'. A former Track horse that she 'Adopted' and trained herself. Suffered some broken ribs and a concussion from that loosing battle.
When we found out from the owners of the stables we boarded at were having financial problems, we invested in as percentage partners. Got lucky and got the Michigan State University Women's Equestrian team to board and train there. Ended up buying those partners out and later after my Daughter went in to the Navy we sold out while having full capacity. A profit finally !
She now works for the DOD along side of many of her former commanding officers near D.C.

The End

@Matt_X,
I'll return your PM later tonight or in the morning.

I've got a Date with a Marlin model 60 and new scope to tweak.
Sorry going Off Topic, hard not to brag on a Daughter.

Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Mar 12 2021 at 4:51pm
Sounds to me like she's worth bragging about!

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OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 15 2021 at 8:43am
Finally had a chance to clear the workbench and get back to this.

When I removed the barrel band, there was no upward spring. 

Checked the fit with the recoil plate.  Its tight, but maybe it should be tighter?? 





Reinstalled and tightened the recoil plate, got another quarter turn on it without feeling it was going to strip or damage anything.
Barrel came up a little (see picture), but snugs down in without bouncing back.

Before removing the barrel band.


Before removing the recoil plate


Stock  (note: RSG S'G' stock not original to receiver, although SG recoil plate might be. )


Barrel rise upon reinstallation





Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 2:15pm
@Matt_X,

Sorry for my late reply. 
I've been on a Successful search mission for fellow member JD aka Jond41403 Big smile

Your barrel hang and Recoil Plate lock up to Receiver look good to me.
If it's just taking 'Light' Downward pressure to push it down to drop the Hand Guard and slide the Band forward, I'd say you have it as close as it's going to be.
It's not unusual for the Barrel Not to Spring back up when you remove the Band and HG.
Often it seems they tend to settle in.
Once I have the best barrel hang I can get I never remove the RP Screw again, unless down the road it needs some fitting/filing or to clear grime out from under it's front lip. On some of my shooters I put 2 small punch type index marks on the bottom of the screw - lined up to a mark on the nut.

I wouldn't be comfortable tightening the Recoil Plate down any farther, in fear of damaging the Plates wood seat or stripping out the Escutcheon nut. 
Speaking of which, Some may not agree but if I see cracking like I'm seeing on your RP ledge- I like to use Krazy Glue and weep in to any openings I see and also on the outer edge of the U shaped Ledge.
I've also glued between the Stock wood around the outer edge of the Escutcheon nut, in hopes of keeping it from any rotation.  

Looking at the picture of your Barrel Band- Shows it's not snug on the bottom/front. Showing a gap between the band and bottom of the stock nose.
I know from our PM's that you tighten the Swivel down enough so that the Swivel 'just' has enough movement to swing freely. So you should be fine there.

Last Fall I worked on a Shooter's extra Stock which had a Type III Band on it at one time. When taking his barreled action with the Type I band it had a similar fit your band is showing.
This is just his shooter stock he wanted to use and save any wear on his good stock.
I made a couple of shims from some hardwood shavings and slid them behind the barrel band spring. Once in place they can't be seen.
The extra outward pressure it put on the Band was quickly noted as a big improvement with much less movement between the barrel, stock and hand guard.

As best I recall, I heard of a few Shooters at our Club that use the Carbine for competition shoots having the outer bottom of a barrel bands inner ring shimmed with tape. 
Some putting thin shims in the Stocks' barrel channel nose that the barrel bands inner ring sets on.
Thinking about it, I can picture how it would help increase barrel hang.
I haven't done this myself or seen it, but the guy that told me about it works with me to service our Clubs Carbines.  He was a Korean War Armorer and very familiar with the carbine in competition shooting.

With all this said... Will any of the above get you shooting higher... I'm not sure.
Type I bands are hard to work with when trying to better shot placement.

And then there is the Front sight, Too Short ? Too Tall ?
You can always adjust your hold. Which is what I do if it's a original I rarely shoot.
Some here can give you general blade heights for a Flip Sight.
Always possible the Frt Sight was changed and never zeroed.
Blades can be carefully filed down.
Blades can have height added with JB Weld or What I prefer a neatly done Solder job, filed and painted. If a tall bladed replacement can't be found.

Hopefully others will share info about the blade heights that work for them with a rear Flip sight.

Again, Sorry for the late reply,
Charlie-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 5:33pm
"Hopefully others will share info about the blade heights that work for them with a rear Flip sight."

Yep, If it shoots high aim low, if it shoots low aim higher. Same goes for left and right! Kentucky Windage!



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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 6:20pm
I'm not too familiar with using crazyglue on wood.  I see it in the catalogs but its one of my typical adhesives or consolidants.  I'll look into it.  I've got some 'old brown glue', tightbond and epoxies.

After dinner I'll check how much gap there is under the barrel band.  Because it and the sling swivel are reproductions I'm perfectly willing to file the latter or add some shimming. 

I was looking at type 1 band  photos to see if there should be a gap or a spacer.  Pretty sure there's no type I drawings in Kuhnhausen.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 7:00pm
There's a nice example of good early band fit here:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stockparts.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stockparts.html

Compare to the bottom front edge of your pictured band.



Krazy glue works well for seeping in to small areas and doesn't leave a hi build up, unless reapplied over dried coats.

Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 8:29pm
I get the idea.  That's a lot better fit.

Due to the shape of the repro band, without taking it off, probably the only thing I can do that won't dent the stock is slip in some cardboard or similar material.

Most of the outer band contact with the stock is on the rear and right.
The bottom of the band has a bit of a peak to it which will be difficult to smooth out while on the gun.   A .002" feeler gage will just slip through there, and on the right by the spring, .003" easily slips through.





What I had been thinking was to reduce the hieght of the swivel (arrows). 




Perhaps a real Saginaw band would be better...

Example from club web page.  (Ignore arrow pointing to spring pin.) 





Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Mar 16 2021 at 10:45pm
As a habit, I always put 2 or 3 layers of an empty primer carton between the handguard and barrel. But I recently got a horrid looking, rust bucket of an IBM whose original Type 1 band has rusted so bad, it wouldn't clamp the stock and handguard well. So, I added the same shim material to the barrel channel as well. Not only does it shoot POI perfectly at 100 and 200 yds. with ball equivalent handloads, it is quite an accurate little carbine. Sometimes shimming a barrel in this manner changes the harmonics in such a way that POI is affected. So, you might try that.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 9:42am
Thx 35 Whelen

@Matt_X,

Hopefully this will point out what I'm trying to say.
Object is to Shim to get the Barrel up.

The BLUE area if shimmed will put a Downward Pull on the barrel.
The YELLOW area when shimmed will push the barrel up. A few build up layers of Tape works well.
Or The Stocks barrel channel could be shimmed where it would contact the barrel band (YELLOW Area)

It's Possible after shimming on the Band or in the Barrel channel nose that the Hand Guard wont fit as snug to the Bands lip. Because of either shimming method 'Pushing' the Barrel upward.

To tighten loose Hand Guard:
See GREEN-  Using Tape or even a Flat leather bootlace in this area will snug the Hand Guard up.
Placed on the Band or over the Hand Guards front lip.

Another option is to Bend the Bands Ring over the Hand Guard Lip. I try not to do this incase I want to use this same Action in another Stock.

** Note Where these Shim locations are Avoids the Heat of the Barrel** 
** Shimming in the GREEN and YELLOW areas should pull the slack from the Bands outer ring**


I really hope this 'Example' works. I've spent an hour trying to down size this picture and add the colors  Ouch

Charlie-P777



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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 1:05pm
Charlie,
I see. I see.
 I thought it was the lack of good contact.  Same thing 35 Whelen was describing.
You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?

Regardless of where the barrel is, the sights will move with the barrel, so it doesn't change a thing. These suggestions are things that will stabilize the action and possibly make it more consistent (print in the same spot). If the barrel is slightly bent in one direction or the other by bedding it, it will certainly change POI, but not likely enough to move the impact by inches.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Mar 17 2021 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

You're actually suggesting that raising the barrel slightly could bring the POI up.  Yes?

Regardless of where the barrel is, the sights will move with the barrel, so it doesn't change a thing. These suggestions are things that will stabilize the action and possibly make it more consistent (print in the same spot). 

And until he has the Action stabilized with a properly fitting Recoil plate, and barrel band with some barrel hang, So he can get tighter more consistent hits......

How is he to know how much to add or take away from the Front Sight Blade ?

Ch-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 18 2021 at 9:49pm
I hear that loud and clear! Thumbs Up

What I don't understand was the line about bringing the barrel up.

Why not bring the barrel even more snug into the stock?
My perspective is the gaps and uneven clamping creates a spring that lets the barrel move with every shot.  That's why my focus was on the outer band (the blue area).  Taking up all the slack in there seems like it would only do good.



Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Mar 19 2021 at 5:05am
Anything touching the barrel (or not touching the barrel) certainly has an effect on where and how tightly it prints. Disassembly and reassembly can result in a different POI, if even ever so slight. They discovered that adding the type III band resulted in an improvement in accuracy. The t3 band certainly has an effect on barrel movement (whip) under fire. I think if one is trying to improve accuracy and stability, a t3 band has to be considered in the mix of things to do.

The early Mini 14 exhibits similar issues. Various devices have been marketed to improve it, such as harmonic balances, braces and even something as simple as adding a flash-hider. Both these guns exhibit similar issues due to the skinny barrel. Ruger eventually addressed the problem with a thicker barrel.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Apr 06 2021 at 2:44pm
Finally.  Morning was nice and calm.  Not too busy at the range.
Going to leave the sights alone for now.  Might push the rear one over a little more if I keep grouping them right.
With the smaller bullseye on the SR1 targets I had to work on focusing on the front sight.  Basically I think at this point its more me than the carbine. 
One FTF - this time I noted the magazine and will go over it one evening this week. 
The empties were flying!  I could hear them hitting off the underside of the roof.    Unfortunately I couldn't recover the majority.  No idea where they went - and I looked and looked.

Front band didn't loosen.  My cold smithing seems to have worked well.
Recoil plate screw may have backed off a 1/16.  I need to check my notes.

POA was the center of the bullseye.  Next time, at least on a SR1, I'll use 6 o'clock.


Sitting & kneeling. Two sets each. 

Offhand, 2 sets.  That's all me there - not the carbine!



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 8:48am
Been a while.
Range was somewhat busier. 
Took a lane next to an M1 rifle.  :)  
Prone and sitting was a little cramped.  
No FTFs.   Some shells ejected forward, some back.  Got two in the forhead and decided to put a hat on. 

I'd say within my ability yesterday both the IMI surplus and the Korean surplus shot about equally well.




Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 9:43am
Thanks for posting more targets!

  Your targets state that fired the groups prone, unsupported. If you're a right handed shooter a good tight sling used as it would be in High Power could very well move your POI to the left. Just a little food for thought.

 


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 11:03am
I'll have to try that and/or shoot from the bench to isolate how much is me.
I'm sure having a coach would help too!

I was a little too confident (cocky?) when I got there.
My plan was to compare the IMI and then work on the other three positions needed for CMP match.
There's two clubs within reasonable distance that have CMP matches once a month.  I need to check on the sling rules and course for carbines.   Not sure if I'm quite ready for timed fire.  I think I can get the kneeling in 60 seconds but it will be very close.  Prone and sitting I'm pretty sure I need to pickup speed.  And I dont want to do that until I improve my form. 
But I could still use the sling when practicing and comparing.

With the crammed position and the loose denim shirt the butt wasn't sitting nice in my shoulder. 
The previous I used the position next to the benches with seats.   You can see my targets and extra cardboard backer under the table.  This time I was in the lane to the right (angled arrow).   But the block on that table comes further forward because there are no seats.  oops.


Here's my other three targets for the day.
Both kneeling and sitting I took a little time on the first few shots and then tried to shoot quickly including a quick magazine change.




Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Jul 24 2021 at 11:50am
I'd suggest you find a local High Power match and someone to mentor you. I shot our local High Power matches for a year and a half or so, on a couple of different occasions. The second time I did it I paid closer attention and learned a lot from a couple of the competitors. Cheek weld, sight picture, trigger control, breathing, natural point of aim and follow-through are just some of the critically important things one must do to shoot well. For me, natural point of aim and follow-through were the least understood, but were the two things that were keeping me from shooting to my best potential. Once I learned those, things came together for all of my shooting.

  Just an FYI, in a match, kneeling and sitting positions are not two separately used positions. You choose one or the other and in my very limited exposure I've never seen anyone use the kneeling position. 

  Here's a link to the rules for M1 Carbine matches (scroll down to page 28)-  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_uM6kLBDEIhAtWYdIh16-Bc5gcVy3Rj0ts-aifR2Blg/edit" rel="nofollow - NM Rifle Program - Draft 2021 - Google Docs

  I would strongly suggest, if possible, you learn and polish the basic principles of shooting from a bench. Once you're shooting nice groups from a bench, THEN start working shooting offhand, sitting and prone. I helped coach our 4-H smallbore team and it wasn't practical to start the green shooters off at the bench, so we'd start them shooting prone, but still the shooter must learn how to shoot from prone and the principles of marksmanship at the same time.

   Here's a link to a pretty good guide on service rifle marksmanship-  https://nfga.org/wp-content/uploads/highpower/basic_highpower_info/SR_Shooting_Guide_AMU031204.pdf" rel="nofollow - SR SHOOTING GUIDE.PDF (nfga.org)

 Your 100 yd. targets really aren't bad at all, keep it up!!


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 01 2021 at 9:46pm
Thanks!
I have the Canadian and US Army books downloaded as well.  I actually found the Canadian one (Shoot to Live) illustrating the "Johnson method" a little more helpful.  But its almost entirely focused on firing prone.

Sling rule for M1 carbines is under 5.3.2:
"In the M1 Carbine Match, the issue Carbine-type sling may only be used as a hasty sling (without arm loop, with arm wrapped around sling) in the prone, sitting or kneeling positions. In the standing position the sling, if attached, may not be used for support."
https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf?vers=121720" rel="nofollow - https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf?vers=121720
In the equipment section is states only M1 carbine slings (or copies) may be used.

I find it ironic that in general I've been shooting better in kneeling than sitting.  When I was a teenager I was pretty good in sitting but then stuggled to make my kneeling targets.  I might have used a crossed leg sitting position with the 22.  Gee. You'ld think I'd remember.  LOL  Of course the jr rifle program is all slow fire - plenty of time to get in position and take the shots, and recoil wasn't a concern. Remington 511 with peep sights or 513T




Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 9:58am
Its the standing position that separates the men from the boys! Most folks score well in the prone and sitting shots. Its the standing that is difficult to master. 

-------------
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 10:21am
I was always told "Matches are won and lost in offhand." and I found that to be pretty much true. 

Sitting Rapid fire was usually my best position and I often scored well into the 90's with my best being a 97-2X. The SR-1 target helped a lot!


Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 8:23pm
I scored mid to high 90s in both prone and sitting. In good years I shot low 90s standing. Good enough to take bronze medals!



-------------
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 9:14pm
What's the advantage of the SR-1?   I thought the reduction in size matched the reduction in distance?
Where you guys shooting service rifles or carbines (or both)?

I've got a long way to go to get that good in off hand.  You can see my scores on the first above.  My offhand from April gnerally looks better (as do most of my targets) but cant score them as I that was before I read the rules and was shooting 14 rounds per target.

In what used to be the junior marksman program, standing was taught more like you'd expect for .22 bullseye competition.  Thats a rather different stance, not that I ever mastered it.  I took a look to find out more about the program and sadly it has apparently dwindled to hardly any participation.   :(  
see https://firearmusernetwork.com/2011/09/01/history-of-the-marksmanship-qualification-program/" rel="nofollow - https://firearmusernetwork.com/2011/09/01/history-of-the-marksmanship-qualification-program/
My patches are labeled 50 Foot, not Junior, so I guess there were several changes in the program but it was pretty universal at the time.  I started at the NJ School of Conservation summer camp an and later continued with a local YMCA.   



Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Aug 02 2021 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

What's the advantage of the SR-1?   I thought the reduction in size matched the reduction in distance?
Where you guys shooting service rifles or carbines (or both)?

I've got a long way to go to get that good in off hand.  You can see my scores on the first above.  My offhand from April gnerally looks better (as do most of my targets) but cant score them as I that was before I read the rules and was shooting 14 rounds per target.
 
  There's no advantage to the SR-1, it just has a generously sized with the 9, 10 and x-ring being in the 6" black. It's the reduced target that is used for 100 yds. 

 I'll tell you light rifles light the Carbine are difficult to shoot offhand because they tend to wave and sway around. When I was competing in High Power I was using a modified Swiss K-31 and light cast bullet loads. Due to the weight of it, that rifle just sits there in offhand.

 For offhand practice I took a manila folder, drew a black bullseye (actually a small dot) on it, scaled to the distance (30' if memory serves) and taped it to the door of a metal cabinet in my shop. I would dry-fire at this in the offhand position and it made quite a difference in my scores....when I actually did it!
 
 


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 9:01am
These are from yesterday's match.  Course A: 5 to sight. 10 prone slow, 10 prone rapid, 10 standing.
Unfortunately we were shooting into the sun, and only the far right lanes had good shade from the trees.  The bright metal on the front sight's top edge made it a lot more difficult to focus.  Looking through the rear sight it seemed to have lint in it.  I think that was just an illusion.






With the first sighters I was aiming at the left center of the bullseye to compensate for the front sight.  But either the sight was more vertical, or the lighting and my sight alignment were such that POA seemed to be prtty close to POI.  

It would be nice to have a coach watching to see if I was making changes to my cheek weld or other body mechanics.  But I think my poor shooting in rapid fire was because I couldn't clearly define the front sight.  But it is interesting that whole group is also low.

Would really love to come up with an effective way to blacken the sights where the finish has been lost.  One of the pistol forums mentioned a black india ink.  I might try that. 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 11:09am
@Matt_X, Check out this CMP thread.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=146065" rel="nofollow - Blackening the front sight questions - CMP Forums (thecmp.org)


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 11:29am
Matt, blackening the front sight is really ni big deal. When I was competing in High Power I kept a can of Birchwood Casey aerosol sight black in my range bag. Now I keep a disposable lighter at my shooting bench and a couple at my gunsmithing bench specifically for blackening sights. A good coat of carbon from the flame of a lighter makes an amazing difference in the sight picture.
Please keep those range reports coming!


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 5:51pm
Thank you gents.
I made a little kerosene smoker out of rifle shell, a cloth wick, and a 45 acp shell as a cap.
Worked pretty well.  Even in the basement lights I can see the difference.

  I can also clearly see the top of the front sight - which tells me the top isn't angled down sufficiently.   It may get filed down even though some consider that taboo.   We'll see.  It's a somewhat 'restored' carbine already.

Correction on the rapid fire target. Seems I can't add to 49.  Still way below where I ought to be able to score.


Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Sep 27 2021 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Thank you gents.
I made a little kerosene smoker out of rifle shell, a cloth wick, and a 45 acp shell as a cap.
Worked pretty well.  Even in the basement lights I can see the difference.



  I can also clearly see the top of the front sight - which tells me
the top isn't angled down sufficiently.   It may get filed down even
though some consider that taboo.
  We'll see.  It's a somewhat 'restored' carbine already.

Correction on the rapid fire target. Seems I can't add to 49.  Still way below where I ought to be able to score.



That's a great idea for a front sight smoker! Good job!

More taboo than altering a front sight is a firearm that won't shoot POI to POA. Just make sure you shoot plenty before you make changes to the front sight.


Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 03 2021 at 9:09pm
We went to the range to break in a P238 and brought the carbines too. We shared a lane and a target for an hour for some casual shooting. The Plainfield had occasional light primer strikes with the Korean ammo. When putting the misfired round in the Inland, it will fire. The 30 round magazines again were reliable while the 15 round magazines occasionally failed to feed. I will have to strip the Plainfield to clean, measure the firing pin protrusion, look at the hammer strike, etc. I will have to check out those magazines too. The Inland was exceptional and the Mrs was keyholing with it when fam firing.




The Inland rapid offhand at 25 yards.


The Inland again with three clicks of windage.



The Plainfield 10 rounds at 25 yards rapid offhand missing the rear sight aperture.




Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 8:24pm
The Plainfield got a new sight so it needed sighted in. The sight is in the same stakes as the old one, but it was so damn tight it was not staked again. I have a little range in the back of the property where I shoot at 25 yards. I have enough room to go to 100 yards, but need to build a backstop first.





You can see the target past the rifle. I use the 25 long paces measuring technique, very accurate method.




The Plainfield is shooting low and the Inland high. They are both bottomed out. I will likely give the Plainfield one more click windage and the Inland two. I gave the Inland two clicks at the range last week too, which makes both rear sights slightly left. The Plainfield is a billet sight and the Inland is pressed. The Plainfield is also late enough that many of the GI parts had dried up and were being manufactured in house so the front sight might have a different spec. Plainfield front sights were mounted slightly rearward too.





Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 4:58am
I think the purpose of the gun might dictate how it should be zeroed. Competition shooters would want to zero at longer ranges, but for the guy that rarely takes longer shots, a 25 yard zero should be sufficient. We zeroed our M1, M14 and AR on 1,000 inch ranges and qualified on much longer ranges using the same settings. One click of windage moves the POI 1-inch at 100 yards or .25-inches at 25 yards. .010 of front sight height moves POI 1.67- inches at 100 yards or about .42 inches at 25-yards. The spec. 7.62 x 33 shoots basically flat out to 100-yards. For people like me that can’t see much past 100-yards, there's no need to expect to hit or even see a target much past that.


Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 9:56am
Thanks for the info. In the eighties it was expert every year in the Corps with A1s and A2s out to 500 meters or 500 yards, but these eyes are older now. I usually zero at 50 yards that also zeros at 200. At 25 it should be low as the bullet is still rising and an inch or so high at 100. At a hundred yards a 25 zero will be three inches high or so.

After a double check, the Inland was not completely bottomed out and had a half click of elevation down. The front sight could be shiny too. Maybe it could get hit with with a blob of paint or tiny dab of JB on the very top of the sight.

There is a state range close by, Island Lake, that allows you to shoot all day up to 200 yards. I need to drag everything out there. I have a service grade Garand showing up Monday, and need to dial in new carry handle sights on an AR pistol too. I also have M1A and a ZPAPM70 to drag along that have yet to be shot on a longer range. It is time to get out the wagon and pack a lunch.











Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 10:03am
To your point about .30 carbine rising.

I posted this in the thread about IMI softpoint.
Graph of .30 Carbine Federal SP when zeroed at 100 yrds shows a 2.2" rise at 50 yards.
(Their FSJ is pretty much the same.)  http://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculatorhttps://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator" rel="nofollow - https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator
edit: This is probably worth further discussion both on practical and historical application.
According to Federal's graph, if zeroed at 100 yds, then point of impact at 25 yards will be just a hair under point of aim.  
I entered 1.5" for sight height when I used the calculator.  Maybe that makes a difference here.






Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 11:16am
If the point of impact at 25 yards is essentially the same as at 100 yards, then why is the acceptable point of impact on the 25 yards test target shifted upward 0.75"?   At least part of the answer turns out to be the sight hieght entered in ballistics calculator.

I don't know the history of this test target.   Its in Kuhnhausen on page 107.   (See the first post of this thread for an example I printed.) It appears in the 1953 TM9-1276 in Chapter 4 Repair and Rebuild  section 25 Firing Test (c) Targeting - but not in the 1947 TM9-1276.  

The hieght I used  for the graph in my previous post (above) was 1.5" and intended for comparison with IMI's ballasitics table.   According to the Kuhnhausen unfiled front blade hieght above barrel centerline is supposed to be .785" minimum.
Using Federal's calculator, changing the sight hight to .83" moved the muzzle (and angle?) upward relative to the target centerline.  This changes the 25 yard point of impact from .1" below target center to .4" above center.   Changing the blade hieght to .785" results in the same .4" rise at 25 yards

Perhaps barrel length and other factors account for the addtional shift on the 25 yard ordnance target.






Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 12:17pm
Thanks Matt, that is an interesting graph. It suggests that the 30 carbine peaks much earlier than other rifles. It sure does look like 25 and 100 yards line up. This is how I typically picture rifle trajectory with most rifles:



To credit from here: https://www.ammoland.com/2014/06/how-to-zero-your-ar-15-rifle/


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 2:17pm
Interesting!

Out of curiousity, lets see what Federal's calculator shows with a .785" high sight zeroed at 25 yards compared with 100 yards.
PS. Here's the correct URL http://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator" rel="nofollow - https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator



Graphed using Excel (office 95)



H'm.  I thought a shorter range zero would result in a higher trajectory down range.
Lets try a 1.5" tall sight.

Interesting!


Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 10 2021 at 7:50pm
Thanks for the info. It will help a bunch at the range. Looking at the bullet falling off, what was battlefield zero with the M1 carbine?

I will probably shoot the Inland again tomorrow at 25. I have a 5.6 HRA Garand arriving to sight in too.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 10 2021 at 10:21pm
I think the short answer is 100 yards.
A few places mention the short range set at 125 yards but other than the Sniperscope, everything else from the period that I've seen says 100 yards. 

Aiming was based on 6 o'clock hold.  Which means for targetting we need to know the bullseye diameter.  
Maybe someone can answer this for wartime production targetting.
However the WW2 era field manuals state qualification target 'A' had a 10" bullseye.

This is the sighting target  in the 1953 Technical Manual for 100 yards
I don't know if its coincidence or not, but the Army 'A' qualification target went from a 10" bullseye to a 12" bullseye around this time.   Makes me think the 1953 sighting target may be more generous than the original production requirements.


And this is the 25 yard version from the same manual.  Its a reduction by 4 of the 12" center.
https://www.marlinowners.com/attachments/6481d1189133175-accuracy-m1-carbine-targeting-requirements-share-jpg.623010/" rel="nofollow - Click here for image of 25 yd target at Marlin Forum

The shots at 25 yards needed to hit 3/4" higher for the 100 yard zero to be correct (with a 6 o'clock hold).   So I's say if your 25 yard group is slightly above center, it should be pretty close to centered at 100 yards.





Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Oct 10 2021 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Mortar-Forker Mortar-Forker wrote:

Thanks for the info. It will help a bunch at the range. Looking at the bullet falling off, what was battlefield zero with the M1 carbine?

I will probably shoot the Inland again tomorrow at 25. I have a 5.6 HRA Garand arriving to sight in too.

 With the original flip sight, the short range zero was 150 yds., the long range, 300 yds. I think 150 yds. is a pretty good compromise. I'm not super picky as long as when using the 100 yd. sight setting, my 100 yds. POI is POA to +3" or so.

 Here are some tables that might help you decide.

 




Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 11 2021 at 8:27am
Thanks! I was going to drop the Inland 25 yard POI and leave the Plainfield based on old habits and other rifle calibers. After looking at the info it would be better to leave the Inland and raise the Plainfield 25 yard POI for a 100 yard zero.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 11 2021 at 9:44am
Yes. That makes sense.  
If you are aiming at target center, then a group about .4" up will give provide a zero at 100 yds.

If you are aiming using 6 o'clock hold, its the same but requires a 25 yard bullseye scaled down by roughly 4 from the intended 100 yard bullseye.
For example the Army 'A' target was 12" so they used a 3" bullseye at 25 yard.
The current competition SR-1 black is just over 6" diameter so a 1.5" bullseye at 25 yards would be the scaled down,



Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 11 2021 at 7:25pm
I raised the Plainfield. The upper right target low shot was the first shot. I raised it to the 150 setting and hit the two following shots.



The Inland I put two clicks left. One was a bit low, but everything is good to move back to 100 yards.

The Garand shots look great except the last two in the lower left. The low one was pulled off before I was settled and the other was done too quickly because Mrs Mortar Forker was saying I was too loud.





The target is over yonder there:



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

I made a little kerosene smoker out of rifle shell, a cloth wick, and a 45 acp shell as a cap.

Shells I picked up at the range. Cloth was cotton rag (t-shirt? or sheet?). Kero I keep on hand for assortment of tasks.  Not that much kero in it.  Just enough to wet the wick.  Experiment a little.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 3:17pm
Love it Matt, but a Zippo lighter works well too.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 3:53pm
The cheap Bic lighter I have didn't produce much soot, hence the experiment.   Maybe for range I should hunt down a real Zippo!  


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 3:55pm
what is meant by barrel hang?


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

what is meant by barrel hang?

When the action is mounted in the stock and the recoil plate torqued, the barrel at the end of the stock nose should ride slightly off the stock-channel. Think of it as inletting a target rifle stock so that the barrel does not touch any of the wood.

This is one of the finer points of accuracy, but to be honest….I have never worried about it. These competition shooters and serious accuracy enthusiast might can benefit, my goals are coffee cans at 40-50 yards. 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 4:46pm
is that the gap between my barrel and the stock by the barrel band? 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 4:51pm


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 5:30pm
A couple pages back Charlie (painter777) described it pretty well I thought.

The way I understand it, when the reciever is installed into the stock, it should lock snugly into the recoil plate.  So snug that without a little push the barrel sits a little bit above its final seated position.

There is going to be a gap at the very front of the stock.  It's the inner barrel band that contacts the inside of the stock.  There may even be some impressions in the wood.

"Your barrel hang and Recoil Plate lock up to Receiver look good to me.
If it's just taking 'Light' Downward pressure to push it down to drop the Hand Guard and slide the Band forward, I'd say you have it as close as it's going to be.
It's not unusual for the Barrel Not to Spring back up when you remove the Band and HG.
Often it seems they tend to settle in." Painter777


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 5:39pm
yep, I was just looking at that trying to decipher what yall were taking about. My gun shoots amazingly accurate, but am a perfectionist (about some things)


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 5:58pm
Think about the carbine as you do with the Mini 14, unless you have a recent heavy-barrel model, it has a similar pencil barrel like the carbine. I probably don’t have to tell you about all the whining that goes on over Mine 14 accuracy and there are numerous gadgets sold to help correct it. Amazingly enough, the carbine guru’s figured out a long time ago that the type III band improves accuracy. What I think it does is stabilize the barrel-whip. You can purchase the gadgets to hang on a Mini to accomplish the same thing.

I’m saying you can’t expect much more from a carbine than you can a stock pencil-barreled Mini, but likely a little better.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 6:01pm
I do have the recent ones with the fat barrel 


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 6:26pm
I have a 85 stainless model and my shooter carbine groups better. I only shoot at closer ranges though and Mini groups suit my needs for that.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 13 2021 at 6:29pm
mines in the 500 serial range. I like it since I can put optics and stuff on it. But within 100 yards I can ding my 8 inch steel plates with my inland standing up 10-12 times outta my 30 round mags so I’m pleased. So does my barrel positioning look correct to you?


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 2:21pm
Never condemn a barrel until you have shot it....no matter what the ME measures. This one swallows a gauge and I call it a 4. I have shot these groups time and time again with this barrel, but decided I would show what an old import marked shot-out barrel will do. True, it's a 25-yard zero but the spread is not going to open much out to 100-yards for sure. These were reloads at 25-yards with a 6 o:clock sight picture. Shoots a fuzz high, but it's suppose to at that range.


Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 2:42pm
Got out to the range to sight in a couple of ARs, a M1A, and a AK at 25 yards without pissing off the neighbors. I had a chance to shoot at a 100 yards too. I only did one magazine per rifle as it was getting late.



Inland:



Garand I was walking left and two probably hit off target right:



I did meet a guy shooting a Garand and Enfield that was really into Carbines. He was thinking of buying a Midway, but missed the boat before they were gone. He had never shot one so I got out the Inland at the 25 yard line and let him shoot a magazine. An Army guy from 1975-95, he was a pretty nice fellow that had a lot of cool military stuff. I hope he joins here. I told him he might find a connection on a good carbine.


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 3:25pm
For some reason....my pix disappeared. Here it was.




Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 3:28pm
I was about to say you forgot to post the picture! Yep good shooting, I find it interesting about ME not having that big effect on accuracy. Any thoughts on why? It’s contrary to almost everything I have ever heard 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 3:29pm
Floyd, you going to the Military gun show on the coast the weekend of October 29/30?


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

I find it interesting about ME not having that big effect on accuracy. Any thoughts on why? It’s contrary to almost everything I have ever heard 

I think it’s “how”’the muzzle is worn. If it is worn the same 360-degrees and to the same depth all way around….there is always some rifling farther down in the bore. That’s my theory anyway, for what it’s worth. This barrel shoots better for me than any other carbine I shoot or have shot, even one measuring .299 and another with an ME of 1. It’s repeated over and over, always shoot a barrel before you replace it based on an ME measurement. The crown is also very important. Counterboring could probably solve most ME problems.

I share tables with a couple of friends, but we limit our shows to Jackson, Natchez and Laure.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 3:50pm
Were you at the one last month at the Laurel fair grounds? I talked to a guy about an inland, he had a bunch of spare stocks and other accessories. It was mostly all carbines and carbine parts. I was talkkng to someone at the table who said he was just there and didn’t know to much about them, and when the main guy walked up the other guy said “hey talk to this guy he knows about the carbines pretty good” was that you??


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 4:48pm
Nope, we didn’t make that show. My buddies are getting on up in age (I am not far behind) and they are slowing down a bit.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 4:55pm
well I’m gonna scope this one out. It says “no modern” firearms, only milsurps, which is right up my alley. Hopefully it’s worth the trip. 


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 7:42am
Yesterday's trial of my Midway Underwood had a couple feed failures, and also I think light strikes. 
:(   I'll start a seperate thread on the functional issues.

Got a nice spot on the range before it got crowded.  Temperatures were perfect - in the 50s? and no wind to speak of.   To keep things simple I aimed center of bullseye the entire day.

With this carbine my shots are much more centered left to right than I've been with my SG (see earlier posts here). 

First 5 shots were with the sight set to 200 yrds.  I thought these would group high - just above the bullseye, but they didn't!  If anything they seemed to be a little low.   Moved the adjustment down to 100 yards and left it there for the rest of the morning.  Only fired 19 shots because one cartridge failed to fire.



Next tried something new for me, shooting from the bench.  Used a box to provide a little bit of support under my left hand.  Then later shot 5 without support and that's the group the low.  I think this is a clue that either I'm pulling down or placing my eye/cheek inconsistantly.  Need a coach!
Used up a couple of partial clips, hence the shots fired not a multiple of 5 (my standard now).


Photography note.   To get better contrast photographing the targets at home, I hung an old blue sheet over a curtain rod in a window. Then clipped the target onto the sheet. 

My offhand shots were all low - that's me, but so were my sitting and prone rapid fire, the latter really strung downward.  This is why I'm thinking that I may be pulling the forestock downward or changing where I place my cheek on the stock (closer to the rear sight)



Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Oct 29 2021 at 11:28am
I have to agree with Floyd about muzzle wear. Some years ago I did a test with 24 different carbines with MEs ranging from .5 up to 5. There was no appreciable difference in accuracy until an ME of over 4.5 was reached. As long as the wear is uniform, carbines are very forgiving of ME.

-------------
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Nov 17 2021 at 6:30pm
Underwood (Italian return). Surplus PSD 86 FMJ.
Temperature just above freezing when I arrived but was warming quickly.  No wind.
100 yds, SR-1.
Worked on some different things.   The lighter smoother trigger is nice, although I haven't figured out how to make it work for me in off-hand.
 




Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 21 2021 at 8:36am
Can you show how much drop changes with ammo that has significantly lower muzzle velocity?
Lets say 1900 fps.
Am I correct this is only an inch or so at 100 yards?
Are there other factors besides velocity that can make point of impact less consistant with less consistant ammo?

Originally posted by 35 Whelen 35 Whelen wrote:


 With the original flip sight, the short range zero was 150 yds., the long range, 300 yds. I think 150 yds. is a pretty good compromise. I'm not super picky as long as when using the 100 yd. sight setting, my 100 yds. POI is POA to +3" or so.

 Here are some tables that might help you decide.

 




Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Dec 22 2021 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Can you show how much drop changes with ammo that has significantly lower muzzle velocity?
Lets say 1900 fps.
Am I correct this is only an inch or so at 100 yards?
Are there other factors besides velocity that can make point of impact less consistant with less consistant ammo?

 You are correct, the difference is actually less than 1"-



 There are other things that can change the POI, such as not using your natural point of aim, sight picture, et al.


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 9:32am
Originally posted by 35 Whelen 35 Whelen wrote:

 There are other things that can change the POI, such as not using your natural point of aim, sight picture, et al.

  You figured exactly why I was asking!   LOL

Last weekend's match I got 87 prone (OK), 71 prone rapid (big improvement but still grouping off the center), and 53 off hand ( Unhappy ).   My thinking was that changing ammo isn't going to change those results much.  Maybe a little in prone, but not rapid or off hand. I've shot standing in the 70s so I know I can do much better there.

The other thing its helpful for is knowing that if I do change ammo, the change in POI isn't going to be more than an inch or two at 100 yds.  If I see gross change, its something else, probably me.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 11 2022 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

For some reason....my pix disappeared. Here it was.



Floyd, I cant believe you shot your wifes fine china like that! 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 11 2022 at 5:49pm
Guys, on your fancy ballistic tables (which are very cool and interesting by the way) can you explain to me what the difference or meaning between "path" and "drop" are? I imagine I know what drop is, but dont think i understand what is meant by "path?"


Posted By: David Milisock
Date Posted: May 11 2022 at 6:19pm
Path I believe is the bullet position to the line of sight.

-------------
David Milisock


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 11 2022 at 8:59pm
I think that's right looking at the tables 35_Whelen posted.  Path is bullet position relative to line of sight.  With taller sights the initial position will be further below that line.  Drop is relative to the muzzle.

Looking back at the table from Federal's on-line calculator, there Drop is relative to line of sight.
I experimented with different sight heights and the taller sights increase the initial 'drop'.  



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