M1 Carbine Info Needed
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Parts Markings
Forum Description: Questions and Answers
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4319
Printed Date: Apr 19 2024 at 12:13am
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Topic: M1 Carbine Info Needed
Posted By: rstilley
Subject: M1 Carbine Info Needed
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 4:46pm
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Hi, I just
inherited an M1 Carbine from my Uncle who recently passed away. He was in WWII
in the Army. I have been trying to do some research on it, and referring to the
book by Craig Riesch on these rifles. So far I have determined that the
Receiver was manufactured by Winchester – serial # 6459093 and appears to be
Type 1B. It seems original with Parkerized finish. The rear sight
appears to be Type III manufactured by J.A. Otterbein and I assume installed by
Winchester? The bolt appears to be Type III round bolt. I have not
disassembled the gun yet as I have run into an issue, I believe, with the
barrel on this gun and need some guidance. The barrel is not
original with a Winchester proof mark. It has a threaded appearance – or a
barrel that has possibly been turned on a lathe? It has “MARLIN” stamped on it
and what appears to be a D or P proof mark about 7” back ( both hardly
legible). It appears to have a rounded crown and I think it may be Type 1
barrel? It is not a Parkerized finish – rather a threaded appearance, so I
assume the barrel is a replacement but I don’t have any idea who replaced it or
when it would have been done. I couldn’t find any information on a barrel in
this condition or appearance. The front sight
appears to be Type 1 with a P stamped behind the blade – which I think means it
was made by Inland. The barrel band appears to be Type 1 and has U1 on band and
U1 on swivel so I assume it was manufactured also by Inland. The stock does not
look like it has ever been refinished, and appears original and in very good
condition (in my opinion). It has a military issue strap also. I am hopeful you
may be able to give me some guidance as to what I have (based on above) and
what I need to do to find out more about the barrel situation. Below is a
Dropbox link with some pictures that may be helpful. Would like to know whether
it would make any sense to try to obtain an original Winchester barrel
somehow?? Don’t even know if that is even possible, or economically
practical?? Can you estimate value as is and what it would be if barrel was
replaced with a Winchester ?? https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zg7xm4jfhpnbm8t/AAC6HeTOktvWlhBiEgDTWxDNa?dl=0" rel="nofollow - ------------- RES |
Replies:
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 5:35pm
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Welcome to the forum, nice looking carbine. Possibly went through a rebuild somewhere along the line and ended up with the Marlin barrel. As far as the finish, some barrels were ground smooth others were not. See the below link for more on that. Would really like to know the inside parts markings, any markings on the stock? If it were mine I would not change a thing. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/barrels.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/barrels.html ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 7:22pm
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Hi and welcome to the Collectors Club from New Mexico! Like Wayne said, it's been rebuilt and the barrel replaced. Marlin was a supplier of barrels for National Postal Meter and Standard Products during WW2 as part of the Government-Free-Issue Barrel Program and they also supplied barrels for field replacement during and after WW2. Yours was probably replaced during the war. If it were replaced later, it likely would have had a later Type 2 or 3 barrel band installed. Replacing the barrel would be a very expensive undertaking and totally unnecessary as long as the Marlin works. Once you get into disassembling it you will likely find other non-Winchester parts. The stock looks like it's Winchester as well. Look for a tiny "W" stamped in the sling well. ------------- JackP |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 7:25pm
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How and why barrels were swapped. That barrel was once on an NPM. The band was not made by Inland, It was made by Union Hardware and used by several prime contractors. Swivel is UI/UP Front sight is a replacement, Which I wonder why the band was not swapped out at rebuild The rear sight looks like the windage screw looks to have an issue. I do not think the cost of replacing the barrel would increase value due to the cost of replacing. But value should not be the issue of your cherished inheritance unless you are looking to flip it. Welcome to the world of carbines! ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 8:40pm
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Doesn't look to be a WRA stock IMO. And stock is a Type II Hi-wood- to early for a 6mil WRA receiver. Stock shows early band use only, if I'm seeing correctly. Trigger housing has no Oil/Lube/Drain hole for serial range. See no remnants of Grey paint on the Rear Adj sight, like on late WRA sights. NPM used Marlin barrel could be traded for a late WRA Barrel. Be interesting to see how it breaks down. Is a nice looking carbine overall. My best shooter carbine has a Marlin barrel. Welcome and Thx for sharing, Charlie-P777
------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Oct 22 2019 at 9:11pm
| Regardless of maker the stock is beautiful. I agree at first glance that the stock does not appear to be WRA, but I'd like to see the slingwell to verify one way or another. Another thought is while it's a rebuild it's a bit odd, in a good way, as far as the parts used. Overall, I like it and BW don't change a thing on it, it certainly won't make it better if you do. |
Posted By: rstilley
Date Posted: Oct 23 2019 at 11:03am
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Hi Wayne, Thanks for info. That link is really helpful and I will be researching a lot more details on my rifle now. I did check the stock and have determined it is Type II - with oval cut /high wood features. I cannot find any external markings on the stock- anywhere. However, inside the sling cutout is stamped IO or OI. The reference book and link indicates this stock was made by S.E. Overton Co. for Inland, and there apparently were 400k of them made - correct? Also have found info on the barrel showing finished barrels as opposed to unfinished barrels - which I now see is what mine is. Plan to take rifle to a really good gunsmith in near future and have them disassemble, clean and inspect to make sure it is safe to operate. Plan to have them take pictures of all the disassembled parts showing any markings on same. Hope to identify manufacturers of every part. Anything else I should have them do?? Thanks for your help and those of others, who I will reply to also. Bob ------------- RES |
Posted By: rstilley
Date Posted: Oct 23 2019 at 11:16am
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Hi Charlie, Thanks for very helpful reply. I know what acronym WRA stands for, but what is IMO?? Appears my rifle is a rebuild of different parts and not all original Winchester. Wonder if there is any way to determine if it was rebuilt during the war or later?? Should learn more after it is broken down and have all the parts examined and markings identified by gunsmith. Will post my findings once I have them so that all you experts can evaluate what I have! Thanks, Bob ------------- RES |
Posted By: rstilley
Date Posted: Oct 23 2019 at 11:21am
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Hi New2Brass, Thanks for reply and link. Getting a real education from all you guys. Thanks! Bob ------------- RES |
Posted By: BER911
Date Posted: Oct 23 2019 at 2:01pm
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Nice looking carbine. IMO - in my opinion ------------- Semper Fi, Bruce |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Oct 23 2019 at 5:52pm
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My gut wants to say the early UI barrel band and swivel came on that Inland stock. When the WRA receiver was mated to the Marlin barrel is when the swivel/band was slid on then the late P marked frt sight. Could very well be a theatre refurbished carbine. No real way to tell. Shoot it and let us know how she likes it. I'd only change anything that affects reliable function. No sign of a Crossed Cannons Ordnance Stamp near the oiler slot? View from multiple angles for any remnants of the stamp. Look for circled P proof on the bottom of the pistol grip. Enjoy, CH-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: rstilley
Date Posted: Jun 09 2020 at 8:33am
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Back in October I posted information on my M1 Carbine I had inherited. I decided to send it to DGR in TN to have them inspect and see what it needed to restore. Turns out the WRA receiver is bad as someone had filed the front of it for some unknown reason before I got it. I was unaware of that issue. Anyway, all else on the rifle is good according to DGR and I previously posted pictures which I assume are still available for viewing. DGR says receiver needs replaced and then it should be in good operable condition. I have decided that I am not going to invest $3-400 in a used receiver, plus the cost to install, etc. so I am going to sell as is. Would like to know id any of you guys are interested in making me an offer. If so, please contact me and let me know what additional info or pictures you need. Not sure if everyone I corresponded with on forum will see this - hope so. Thanks. Bob Stilley ------------- RES |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 09 2020 at 10:30am
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Bob, Is the receiver filed where the barrel mounts? Any pictures of the filing? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: rstilley
Date Posted: Jun 09 2020 at 10:59am
Please send me your email so I can send you pictures.
      ------------- RES |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Jun 09 2020 at 11:05am
| Wonder if someone was trying to set the barrel back by taking material off the face of the receiver? |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 9:02am
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Images added ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 9:52am
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How? Why? Another one bites the dust. ------------- My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives. https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/ |
Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 1:34pm
| Oh my. Bubba strikes. I wonder if that was an attempt to fix a headspace issue; chamber was reamed too far or something. How does the barrel shoulder look? |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 2:12pm
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That can be fixed with a trash can and a new receiver. Hope that was not a real gunsmith that did that. ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jun 10 2020 at 7:14pm
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Are you near DGR? ------------- My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives. https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/ |
Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jul 06 2020 at 11:04pm
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Was the receiver maybe a reclaimed drill? The only way I see to make it viable again is by machining about 50 thousanths (like a counterbore approach) to make a true and square face then using a large shim. Muy grande. Very big. ------------- My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives. https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/ |
Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jul 07 2020 at 10:29pm
| guys--the receiver is super early serial for having the serial set back and trademark switched from top to bottom, its screwed but is very unique because of the rear receiver marking-from memory I have 6466208 which is set back and believe it got published 15 yrs ago as earliest seen with that probably being a reused serial--well can make pretty wall hanger no extra spent |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jul 08 2020 at 1:12pm
Hi Marcus, Do you mean: Trademark switched from Bottom to Top? Pic shows no Trademark stamp below Winchester stamp. Charlie-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
welbytwo wrote:Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jul 08 2020 at 7:52pm
| on early winch till about 661xxxx winchester has trademark stamped below winchester--after the adj sight was fully adapted they move serial back and flipped trademark to top so you could see winchester name behind the adjustable sight hence the value uptick for late winchesters--you really can see what brand it is |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jul 08 2020 at 10:25pm
Marcus above you had it reversed ..... "Trademark switched from TOP to BOTTOM." I understand your new reply and why the Winchester name was lowered and the TRADEMARK STAMP was moved to above the Winchester name instead of below the Winchester name. In other words, I figure you mean't to say Trademark Switched from Bottom to Top in your first reply. Corn growing in this heat? Getting any rain ? Cheers, Charlie-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jul 09 2020 at 12:02am
| corn is just ok--dry now-had to replace two irrigation well motors--too much bourbon--top bottom bottom top u know |
Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jul 09 2020 at 9:31am
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Most of my interest in Carbine was with Winchester and I've had as many Wins as Inlands. It never made a difference to me where the maker stamping is located and didn't learn of it until I'd been into them for 6-7 years. At the same time I do't fault someone for preferring the change when offered a choice. ------------- My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives. https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/" rel="nofollow - https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/ |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Jul 11 2020 at 3:30pm
| There's some good background info on the trademark change in NL 355-2 and 3. Personally, I've never seen a WRA carbine in the 5 million range with the change in location, but I've hardly come even remotely close to seeing all of them. |
Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 11:25am
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UPDATE I purchased the OP’s carbine and was able to find a way to safely correct the damage done to the receiver. It involved installing a special spacer to replace the material removed from the front of the receiver. Afterward the barrel was able to be properly torqued to the index mark resulting in an actual head space of 1.290”+. In addition to the receiver repair I replaced the rear sight, recoil spring, recoil spring guide and mag catch plunger/spring. These all appeared to be either modified or homemade. The front sight pin and key were missing so they were replaced as well. I also intend to replace the hand guard which is a poorly made commercial reproduction and fits very loosely. Pictures below show the parts replaced.        I was finally able to test fire this carbine and so far, things look good. First round was low so I adjusted the hold to put the next six rounds in the black. I will adjust the front sight height after I put a few more rounds through her. Empty casings look okay with the typical little ding often found with early operating slides. No malfunctions occurred but more testing is needed.  As mentioned in an earlier post, this carbine has the word “Trademark” above the “Winchester” name on the receiver, perhaps one of the first to have this feature. Another interesting find I discovered when replacing the rear sight is that there are no stake marks at all on the receiver. Is this unusual for Winchester?  Also, in spite of the proof marks, the Marlin barrel appears to be new. The gas cylinder nut was loose and unstaked. There was no accumulation of carbon in the gas cylinder or on the back of the piston. I am unable to explain why the receiver was ground like it was except perhaps as an attempt to correct barrel/receiver timing during the installation of a “new” barrel and too much material was removed. I will post more pictures after I get the replacement hand guard and clean up the stock a bit. Stay tuned. ------------- JackP |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 11:47am
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Very good “Mr. Wizard”. Rescued a potential lost treasure. I might be interested in the handguard, depending on how long it is. Commercials sometime measure closer to 8-1/4 than GI 8-1/8. If that one is 8-1/4.....I’d make it worth the effort to measure it and PM me. Good job Jack! EDIT: A man my age should never work from memory. I meant 8 and not 10. Corrected post.
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Posted By: 03manV
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 12:21pm
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Would be great to see pictures of how you did the repair! Nice work. ------------- Don |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 12:42pm
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Very nice JackP, I thought for sure that carbine was destined to be a wall hanger. Glad to see that it is functional again. ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 2:25pm
@03manV, When I first saw the picture of the receiver the OP posted, I thought the "filing" was square with the face of the receiver. What the picture didn't show was the mating surface was actually beveled or chamfered at a 30 degree angle. I had hoped to fix the problem with a simple shim that was a thickness that would allow the correct timing. That was not possible with the bevel. I suppose I could have re-machined the mating surface and replace the missing material with a spacer, but I didn't need to. What I ended up doing was fabricating a special metal ring that would "crush" to fill the beveled space allowing sufficient torque to reach the index mark. Below is a picture of the ring I made out of "special" material and a little sketch of how it fits between the barrel and receiver (on the left) compared to a shim (on the right). The repair is not visible after the barrel was installed so there's not much to see.  ------------- JackP |
Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 3:30pm
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Looks like a Harley exhaust gasket...lol. Do you think it will flow over time...maybe need to keep an eye on it?
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Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 3:55pm
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@floydthecat, I will keep an eye on it. I was unable to find a torque specification for the carbine barrel. Available documentation only specifies an amount of rotation, usually 1/16" to 3/32" rotation after hand tight to the index mark. The torque that it takes to get there is whatever it is. Since I was crushing the ring I made I knew that I needed to use torque as a measure. Fortunately I was able to achieve in excess of 60 ft. lbs. by the time I reached the index mark. I would have been happier with 80 ft lbs but I think it will be okay. The crush ring is a fairly hard substance but I expect there was a considerable exchange of molecules between it and the barrel and receiver. I guess we'll see. ------------- JackP |
Posted By: Lightning330
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 4:48pm
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Very nicely done Jack and a great save. ------------- Lightning 330 |
Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 5:19pm
I just received the replacement hand guard from Ebay. My wife says it matches perfectly. Who am I to argue? Below are a few pictures of the completed project. As floydthecat suggested I should keep an eye on the barrel tightness but so far, I’m happy. I’m all in for under $750.      The Type II stock had a coat of spray-on clear coat which was easily removed with a little acetone. The wood doesn’t look like it’s been sanded at all and I left it that way. I just rubbed in a little RLO. No CC or rebuild marks on the stock so I suspect it may have been a wartime field replacement. I replaced the broken rear sight with a spare Type 3 I had. You might see the red tube aperture insert I added to help sharpen the sight picture. It makes a big difference! Try it.     It turns out the only Winchester parts are the receiver and trigger (and now the hand guard). The stock is Inland, the trigger housing is S’G’ and the bolt and slide are Inland. Other internal parts are a mix of SG and Inland. Oh, and the barrel is Marlin. ------------- JackP |
Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Jul 18 2020 at 7:01pm
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Nice job on saving that carbine. Looks to me like no one will ever know unless they remove the barrel and I doubt there will ever be a need for that. ------------- OGCA Life member NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |