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Disappointing buying experiences.

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4037
Printed Date: Oct 16 2019 at 3:44am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Disappointing buying experiences.
Posted By: tenOCEE
Subject: Disappointing buying experiences.
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 10:34am
It's not a pleasant subject but a reality in our community. One of my frustrations with this hobby is the experienced people taking advantage of newer enthusiasts. When I started, my exposure was almost exclusively on the CMP Carbine forum where I purchased a lot of parts, part of which were used for study and to establish a relationship with advanced hobbiests. In doing that I immediately experienced several sellers with poor character who were looking for a quick buck and must've assumed a new guy would never learn how they had been treated. They were wrong. And it became a frustration to see those people still being pushed to newer people. Today they're still defended and advanced people even still buy from them knowing they've taken advantage of people.

Here's one experience that took me by surprise since by this time I was fairly well known and educated on parts & condition. I had also purchased a couple of parts from this seller even talking to him by telephone for a good while. Sometimes there's a mistake. This was obviously not a mistake.

This came from one of the most prolific sellers and most recommended from that site and was purchased probably 7 years ago for high retail of $60 at the time. It's still up there in price today, even being a Rockola part. In the 2nd pic it may be hard to see the bent right ear but it's pronounced in person.






Replies:
Posted By: jangle
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 10:56am
Yes, very disappointing, but not surprising as this goes on in all collecting circles.  Greed over honesty!

One thing I learned along time ago is that the number of posts on an online venue, does not necessarily make that person an expert.


Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 3:33pm
OP, thanks for sharing your story. I am a newbie with one year of experience so I understand how you feel. Fortunately I have had favorable experiences with purchases on both forums. I also know I've been lucky. I am unsure how to completely protect oneself from an unscrupulous seller.


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 4:22pm
You can only protect yourself by discussing sellers privately, which is what most of us do. The people who are pushed are probably the people to be wary about. Make sure you get good quality pictures of the exact item and don't just trust that they will deliver a quality item unless you see it and judge it to be so. People recommend some of those sellers because they have things to sell when you want them, not because the buyer made an educated decision. New people are in a hurry to get a part. I wasn't.

I don't know anybody who bought as many parts from multiple people on CMP as I did my first 2 years. With due respect to you, I'm not addressing the good experiences on CMP. I've had favorable experiences there too, and a couple with that seller previous to the bad one. He had my trust at that point and that sight is what he delivered even after speaking on the telephone about anything and everything for an extended time once. There are multiple people on both forums who've discussed how they've also been taken advantage of by him.

The point is and my advice has always been that there are sellers who are pushed on new people (especially newer people) as having integrity yet they are not above unsavory behavior. There's really no excuse for a sight delivery like that one, especially as a repeat buyer from someone being pushed as above being reproach. That sight is good fit for a BLUE SKY barrel.


Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 8:04pm
Buyers in today's carbine marketplace need experience, knowledge and maybe most importantly a memory like an elephant. Also, at some point a potential buyer needs to say to themselves is it really worth it, will another come my way cheaper plus with better quality and what will my return be when I sell it? Yes, there's some sellers who care nothing about anything but simple greed. However, I have always said that we as buyers can be our own worst enemies at times too.

The bottom line is that buying and selling in today's market is a bit of a cat and mouse game, a thrilling and potentially a rewarding endeavor and a great place to flush your money down the toilet...ain't it grand!


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: May 05 2019 at 11:53pm
It's amazing just what rare or odd item turns up that you thought you would never see. Patience is key. It's not a race. Maybe the counterfeit parts are so common now because buyers aren't patient.

Fortunately I only got bitten for a small item.


Posted By: shadycon
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 8:41am
I always say "Do your homework".


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M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!!


Posted By: chipins
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 3:22pm
The problem is people are not publicly exposed. For some reason there is this ridiculous unwritten rule its not right to publicly out someone on these forums.  I have said it before and i will say it again , no one over on the cmp forum is doing any "new" guys any favors, not that they have to or should but it is recommended by many as the place to go . Im sure I am not the only one that thinks differently about that for several reasons.  If I bought something on a forum and got screwed I would  pound that guys name into the dirt.   Why not , if  you dont he just keeps on doing it.  Sell bogus s**t and suffer the consequences.   Works that way with everything , why not with this. 



Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by chipins chipins wrote:

The problem is people are not publicly exposed.


HERE-HERE! Thumbs Up


Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 6:54pm
Buyers who get scammed are often too embarrassed to mention the incident or in some cases they are oblivious to the situation. I mean how many times has someone seen glowing feedback left for a clearly dubious deal that went down? Also, when these type of discussions do come up often the site mods will shut it down because the discussion violated their personal nice-o-meter. It's a shame that scummy sellers get away with and aren't outed, but until someone comes up with an agreeable way to expose them I fear it will be stay the curent course in that regard.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by chipins chipins wrote:

For some reason there is this ridiculous unwritten rule its not right to publicly out someone on these forums. 

This forum or the CMP forum?

FYI there is a section specifically for sharing buying experiences on this forum, It is a sub forum to the for sale section..
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/cheers-or-jeers_forum80.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/cheers-or-jeers_forum80.html

The only rule would be stick to the facts and keep emotions out of it. 
I have found for the most part when bringing an issue to a sellers attention they will usually take it back.

We have rules on sales posted here:  http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/rules_topic1060.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/rules_topic1060.html
It is a sticky at the top of the for sale section.

The CMP also has a feedback thread
http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=81" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=81

Here is another interesting post FYI
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?p=1831113#post1831113" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?p=1831113#post1831113




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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/pictures-tips-sizing-and-posting-avatars_topic1083.html" rel="nofollow - Edit and post pictures


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: May 06 2019 at 8:03pm
I'll answer. People within this group frequently aren't getting outed. It's a common occurance. When an attempt is made a couple of deflectors will run deflection for the scammer (because they want the scammer to rePark their Carbine for them to defraud more people?), then the offender will pipe in and get chippy and put it back on the buyer as dishonest. The goal is to cause the wronged person more grief and to get the threads deleted for a total win.

Has been happening for a long time. An honest person can't win against someone willing to be dishonest and honest whenever it suits their purpose.

If that CMP thread had the scammer posting in it refuting the charge and getting personal, it would've been deleted. But it didn't because he isn't.


Posted By: Missile Inspector
Date Posted: May 07 2019 at 1:06pm
Me being a rookie to the carbine world, I'm learning that there sure is a dark side of it. There are obvious people out to take your money and smile all the way to the bank without regret. 
I don't frequent the forsale forums but I do on the popular auction sites, not looking to buy any parts but more for the learning experience. I am learning to spot repo parts and I see sellers not selling them as repo. 
Being an experienced seller on an auction site is how I fund my carbine habit. I have never sold a gun part, but have learned that there are scam buyers out there also. Not only you need to be aware of who you are buying from, but also selling to. 


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 07 2019 at 10:08pm
Ten,
Did the Seller offer a return if not happy?
Appears you paid about a Dime per pit.

Over the years I've found that this type seller/buyer is quick to jump in there and help new owners with their questions. Often feeling them out so he can purchase the new guys carbine below market value. Or trading them a common part they say he needs in trade for a pricey part from the new guys carbine. All the while the new guy is happy he's being taken care of because of the 'Special Treatment'. Seller/Trader often mentions "To make it worth my time" then gets new guy to swap his Wrong for your carbine Rock Ola Dogleg hammer for a Original for your carbine HI straight hammer.

To New Carbine Owners,
When trying to figure out your first Carbine, Take your time and get plenty of opinions.
Beware of the Emails and Private Messages inquiring about your carbine or any part of it until you understand what you have and especially who you are dealing with.

Charlie-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: May 07 2019 at 10:36pm
LOL. Yeah, a dime per pit is about accurate. From memory I didn't ask for a refund or a return. I've mentioned the poor condition to him publicly on threads a couple of times and he just ignored it. He was unapologetic. I just filed it in the 'do not buy from again' folder with 3-4 other CMP sellers, three who still actively sell there. He later asked for a cheaper price on some slides I was selling. That was funny, too.


Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: May 08 2019 at 6:40am
Nearly all my carbines were acquired before I joined this forum, I had read enough here and other places to know to ask questions, get pics, and ask for an inspection period.  Sellers I bought from met those requirements. Thing is at that point I didn't have any experience (and still very little) on fake parts so if they met the descriptions then I figured life was good.  Best I can tell I did OK.  Now first thing I do is a search here and a little Googlin' on sellers, especially those on GB.  That has prevented me from even considering a bid.  Fortunately the only fake parts I know I own are a few oilers I acquired before I became more attuned to "Trust, but verify".   


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 7:35pm
Even the well defended sellers tried humping me over when I started. One arrogant Carbine guy sent me a 3 weld scar band for a spring tube Winchester. I had to inform this knowledgeable person that it was supposed to be a two weld like we talked about and it wasn't supposed to look brand new. His response was to accuse me of swapping it to scam him. He's the one who later contacted me to sell a B-IP rear sight he put together backwards and claimed I was wrong while I was looking at the pics of the leaf backwards. At another time this guy told me my W marked recoil plate was counterfeit because the W was backwards. I realized by then he was exactly what another guy told me in email, "You can buy your way in, but it doesn't mean you know what you're doing."

Oh, he also offered to sell me electronic copies of all the CC newlsetters because it was his last one allowed to sell by agreement with The Club. By then I didn't believe what he had to say and that was that.


Posted By: David Albert
Date Posted: Jun 09 2019 at 12:02pm
My recommendation is to steer away from the CMP forum for buying and selling. Conduct your business on reputable sites where reputation is a factor.

I'm not saying to stay away from the CMP itself. They are a fine organization.

Just my $.02.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Eagle Scout, NESA


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Jun 09 2019 at 12:08pm
Hi folks. I'm a Deflector. I'd like to explain something.

If you buy something listed for sale on this Discussion Forum, or, have someone use this forum and/or it's messaging service to sell or trade you something ... or you sell something via this forum to someone else on this forum .... and it's not as advertised, fake, etc. we would be much appreciative if you would let one of us administrators know.

Know up front we will ask for the facts of the matter. Just as you would. If the facts are clear the offending party will be dealt with by one of a number of different methods in line with the offense.

Personally, I have not acted in the roll of a Deflector for any sales conducted on this forum. My role as a Deflector has been on a limited number of occasions on the discussion forums where one or more people get upset or ticked off with one another and use the discussion forums as a sounding board that detracts from the reason the forums exist. Occasionally driving away others not involved in the matter who view the discussion and think the forum is more about personal issues than it is carbines.

Before you respond to this, keep reading please.

I am not the Forum Police. I'm the guy who started this entire website on my own and the guy who has authored and continues to author all the web pages. There was no forum when I started this website. It would have remained that way had someone else not stepped in and built this forum. He still manages it and maintains it. At a great cost in his personal time for the purpose of allowing everyone to share info. Me, the reason I wouldn't do a forum is I would rather spend my time building things to help people without having to referee complaints. Even legit ones.

Back to me. I'm on a mission and the websites and web pages here are part of it. I'm trying to take this carbine info, research, and everything related to a whole new level. It's slow going given the time involved. But it's going. See any other firearm websites that show things about their firearms like this website shows regarding these particular firearms? There is a lot more in the works. In time.

It's been my experience that almost everyone has something positive to add to the overall mission and goals here. Even those can be a pain in the backside occasionally because of their personality. And no, tenOCEE, I am not referring to you buddy when I say pain in the backside.

I'm also aware there are a few that will have to be dealt with. I don't have much patience for taking time away from all I do to step in and try to get folks to set aside their personal differences and stick to building something bigger and better. But I do it occasionally as its in the best interests of building something bigger and better.

The people of the human race who scam one another for personal gain, profit, egos, etc. exist in [become part of or troll] every endeavor to do something good. They can destroy and ruin an entire project. But only when the focus remains on them instead of the mission and goals.

When the focus needs to be on someone in particular and the circumstances warrant it with the facts to back it up I make the recommendation they be banned. Normally the fella who runs this forum is well ahead of me. He doesn't share the stats on the number of people who have been banned or blocked, who they are/were or why. He moves on to getting back to why this forum exists.

What I'd like to ask of everyone is stay focused on the positives here and ignore personalities. Don't ignore a thief in our midst. But also don't expect us to boot someone without the details and facts to back it up. Again, tenOCEE, this ain't about you. You do a lot of good here.

I gotta get back to work. Often I fail to communicate what I really mean to say. If that's happened here it's just another reminder to me of why I need to stick to research and web pages.

I'm not targeting anyone with this post. It's the concept of what we're trying to do here and to stay focused on it I'm trying to communicate to everyone.

Jim   




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