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M1A1

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: New Member Introductions
Forum Description: Tell us a little bit about yourself
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3941
Printed Date: Apr 20 2024 at 12:00am
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Topic: M1A1
Posted By: 03eleven
Subject: M1A1
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 8:59am
New here but looks like I came to the right place! Been researching this rifle for a few days and would love to get some expert opinions on what exactly I have here. I've been collecting Garands for a few years and recently was given the opportunity to borrow this rifle from a friend for a display at a local Marine Corps League fundraiser and it was one of the crowd favorites. The owner has offered to sell me the rifle with a few hundred rounds and a dozen or so magazines. I've always wanted to add an M1 carbine (in any configuration) to my collection but I want to try and learn as much about this particular rifle as I can first. I think I have a handle on most of the gun parts but really need help identifying the stock. Here's what I know (more accurately what I think I know):

1) Receiver is a Saginaw S'G' 186xxxx (Grand Rapids? Possibly IP transition?) So I know it is not a bonafide M1A1 

2) Barrel: SA  2 51 (Blue Sky import marking), heavy wear 30.06 round sinks to the brass

3) Slide: Springfield? 7161843

4) Trigger: Inland

5) Stock: The only markings I can find is the "OI" on the bottom of the grip and "614" and the wagon wheel cast inside the buttplate, the stock appears to have been crudely modified for the selector but I read this conversion could have been performed in the field in some cases? 

Very interested to know what you think about this mashup and possibly a ballpark estimate before I drop the coin on it, thanks in advance gents!

*Sorry for the terrible photography, happy to retake any pics or other pics if needed*


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Semper Fi



Replies:
Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:00am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:01am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:03am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:04am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:09am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:11am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:13am
Devil Dog, welcome to the forum. So as you know you have a mixed part carbine, with an import mark. Import mark alone knocks down the value to collectors. That is a pretty rough selector cut out on the stock, interesting.

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:26am
Thanks W5USMC! Yes it is a pretty rough specimen! 

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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:31am
Also looks like it is missing the leather cheek piece on the wire stock, is that correct.

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:32am
Correct, and the oiler..

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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:34am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:46am
So the blue sky imports came from South Korea, no way to tell if that stock was on the carbine when imported but it is possible and maybe the Koreans did the M2 cutout. Are you sure there are no markings on the fore stock anywhere?

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:00am
Unfortunately there appears to be a splinter of wood missing where the "OI" mark should be or is worn off but I'm struggling to make out any other proof markings on the stock besides the one on the bottom of the grip.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:09am
The only wartime production stock was made by Overton for Inland. It would have an OI inside which apparently yours does not.
Springfield Armory made or contracted replacement stocks.

There was something about a different color USGI M1a1 stock and a question of who supplied the blanks to Overton. I have not observed one of these to make comment.

It is unclear to me if yours is USGI, Foreign, or commercial made.

Handgrips on stocks used by Inland were either made by Overton or Richardson. Yours appears to be OI which is Overton.

Someone modified the stock for a selector switch. Does not appear to be oxidized so think newer than Korea era.  Might not be a bad idea to rub some raw linseed or stock oil in the cut parts to preserve. In a pinch, for the inside of the stock, I would not be opposed to vegetable oil.

In your serial range, I would expect the rear left receiver detail to be squared. This would mean the receiver was made at Grand Rapids by Saginaw as opposed to IP. 


The Blue Sky shows the barrel was in Korea, think of it as a tattoo where it served. 


You say the trigger is Inland, do you mean trigger housing?

Slide: Both Inland and Winchester produced the late slides with the numbers. You need to look inside the box for letters.
Are there letters next to the numbers or additional numbers?



Welcome to the forums and thank you for your service.

edit to add, the splinter of missing wood is not big enough to remove the whole OI




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Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:20am
Thanks for the info! Like I said, I have doubts about the fore stock but the wire frame and grip appear to be authentic based on what I've seen, what say you?




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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:25am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:29am
I can only read what may be a partial second line

71618 (missing 43?)
96567-  anything else?

Centered all the way to the right it looks like an S?

The second line should be an assigned vendor code from the postwar period possibly up till the '70s
I do not think this has ever been reported. I will have to do some digging.

If possible try taking a picture outside as the camera will have more light to work with.
If you are downsizing pictures to upload I would appreciate a full-size picture which you can email me at Dan@UScarbineCal30.com

trigger housing is an earlier Inland. All parts except some small parts such as springs and plungers are marked. To quote a recent post "Like opening a box of cracker jacks!"


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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:33am
Has the stock bridge has been modified and partially removed. Not sure if that is an m2 thing.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:37am
the bridge would interfere with the disconnector lever.





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Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:40am
new2brass, The numbers on the slide read "7161843" and below is "96567", yeah its a Frankenstein special lol I will try to improve my pics moving forward.

m1a1fan, not sure about all of the nomenclature on this platform yet what is the stock bridge? There seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence of m2 conversion at some point (US, foreign or private) 


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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 10:56am
This is the bridge, yours is modified on the right side, as new2brass mentioned without the modification the bridge would interfere with the disconnector.



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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 11:14am
Roger that, I assumed that was it but I've learned not to assume anything with these old rifles.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 11:30am
Have you browsed the information on the Club's main page? If you click on the M1A1 pictured on the top of this page it will take you to the club main page. On the left there are links to all kinds of great info.

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 1:57pm
Yes sir, such a great resource but between that and these replies I'm inclined to believe the stock is not authentic and the rifle isn't really worth anything so I guess I'll be passing on it. Thanks for your time.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 2:00pm
Someone modified that for full auto in their garage or basement. What you already know as a Bubba job being that you're into Garands. I wouldn't oil those bubba'd places. I'd have it repaired if mine.

For most here the SA barrel doesn't have the collector value in the first place. It's good that the correct barrel wasn't Blue Sky'd, but that Carbine action has possibly seen some action having been rebarreled and still shot out.
A normal Carbine Blue Sky with SA barrel is not high on the value side COMPARED to original and no import stamp.

The stock with it's issues will cost to have repaired. Wood repairs and leather repair

There are other ways to mostly determine if the stock forearm is legitimate M1A1, SA post war or other. Is the left side notched for the leather cheek piece? If so, is it gradual or hard lines to the dip down? Is there an S A stamped on the top rail where the hand guard meets the top of the stock? Those are the first two things to check.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 4:09pm
I had that feeling from the beginning but wanted to believe there could be another explanation (field conversion, sloppy conversions from other countries, etc) but the lack of any patina or color compared to the rest of the gun is pretty convincing that it was done in the last couple of decades or so (there I go assuming again...) The cheek piece cut out looks like a steep cut to me but I can't find any other discernible markings on the forend anywhere. I think I know the answer to this question but is $800 too much with mags and ammo?



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Semper Fi


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 4:21pm
In this area, the 800 area for the stock only would be a decent sale (with real wood). The wood can be repaired. It's a common modification. Verifying the forearm can be done to assure it's real. Take it off the stock and look for an extra hole where one shouldn't be (very unlikely with a low wood stock like that). When a normal stock is cut to M1A1 it leaves a hole where the recoil screw goes in regular stocks. Look for a small stamp in the barrel channel around where the barrel band sits. They sometimes look like a single letter. Shoot a closeup of the milling in the slide channel. Shoot a clearer pic of where the OI should be stamped sideways from that one you took. The camera can show what you didn't see at first.

EDIT: If i was just modded having an OI and without leather, still around 8. without an OI present the stock price is what? It's just speculation about the forearm and maybe 6. The Carbine action having it's value in addition.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 4:57pm


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Semper Fi


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 5:04pm


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Semper Fi


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 5:16pm
Maybe someone can see the OI?
I like the nose channel characters. They look properly worn like I would hope to see. I don't see any part of the OI but my monitor isn't so great. I also look for different milling in the bottm of the slide channel. I'll post my pics later and maybe I'm not on the right foot depending on them. Plus diff densities of wood might respond differently.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 5:29pm
👍 Thanks for your time.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 7:05pm
Ten, your nose observations are right on.
I am leaning toward a missed OI mark.

I would have to see what you are saying about the extra hole to remove doubt.

I think the 800 is a deal.

This may be one of those odd color ones I mentioned earlier



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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 8:13pm
@new and others: Thanks for clarification on bridge removal and why. I've seen a few, but usually the entire bridge was removed.

@OP: Great pictures! I like the para...especially if picked up on the cheap. It's been places...


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 8:37pm
I've posted about the different wood grain structures/colors on CMP and Milsurps a few years ago in regard to one I located on a local internet board. That one having an odd grain structure and color as well, but has a cartouche indicating the second block M1A1 release and having only type II/III band marks.


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 8:48pm
The pistol grip is walnut. The stock...no idea?


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 8:58pm
From memory (worse each month it seems) the one I located was similar grain structure and definitely not like most Walnut M1A1s you see, at the same time undeniably authentic.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 14 2019 at 9:58pm
I appreciate all the responses and education

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Semper Fi


Posted By: jeepwm69
Date Posted: Mar 15 2019 at 10:31am
Don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm finding this thread very informative.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 16 2019 at 8:12pm
Well I paid the man today so I guess I'm in. Thanks for everyone's input and consideration. I look forward to continuing the search to learn more about this oddball.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 16 2019 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by 03eleven 03eleven wrote:

Well I paid the man today so I guess I'm in.


Congrats, now here is the thing, once you have 1 carbine you need more and more, and once you are really hooked, you will start selling or trading all your other guns for more carbines. They are fun to shoot and addictive to collect!

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: cali201
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 5:17am
Frank Derrico is the go to guy for carbine stock repairs, you can see a post of his here, sign up and send him a PM. He can make that m2 cutout vanish as well as other repairs to the stock.    https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=62458" rel="nofollow - https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=62458


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 7:47am
Frank is a member here as well. Just PM him
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2119" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2119


Speaking of modified stocks. Here is the brother of yours. It need more immediate help from Frank then yours

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=243079

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Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 9:14am
Yesterday I saw an M1A1 forearm piece fashioned from a standard M1 stock. Interesting timing I know but it belongs to a friend who was curious what it was. Also it wasn't a high wood. Guess they needed one but didn't want to burn a high wood. It also didn't have the side relief area for the leather cheek piece. Shoulda got a pic of the extra hole, but if you see one you shouldn't be confused. It's dead center where the recoil plate screw goes through. M1A1 stocks shouldn't have a centered hole under the recoil.

Here's one of odd wood structure compared with the normal Walnut. Both are authentic.




Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 9:17am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Frank is a member here as well. Just PM him
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2119" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2119


Speaking of modified stocks. Here is the brother of yours. It need more immediate help from Frank then yours

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=243079


Afraid there's little help for this one.




Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 10:07am


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Semper Fi


Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 10:18am
Definitely fake.

Kidding. Right between those two holes would be a 3rd if it was a standard stock cut down.

EDIT: Looks like you have the long wood type grip screw too. Seems I read that rebuilds got replaced with a short one like a butt plate screw. Think I remember that later ones were shorter by design? Someone will probably chime in for correction as needed.


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 10:51am
Noticed what looks like a different lower hinge screw in previous pictures. Looked like it had a flat bottom vs. the rounded ones I'm used to seeing.

Also, inside the grip, where the spring goes, check and see if there is a little washer. It can be missed as sometimes, it is stuck inside. See the little red arrow in the middle of the photo below.



Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 2:25pm
I noticed the bottom screw in the grip was flat too but wasn't sure if that was correct or not compared to other pics I've seen. I know the stock operates much better now that it's been dis and reassd 👍

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Semper Fi


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 5:02pm
Are we talking about the long wood screw?
MWO ORD B28-W4 20 March 1944 was to discard the 2 3/32 screw and replace with a new 2 3/4 screw.
This was to allow a commercial screw and prevent splitting of the grip.

It is in CCNL 379 and 384

the MWO was canceled 8 Nov 1945

The 1944 MWO superseded the Feild Service Work Order FSMWO B28-W2 4-Nov 1943
We do not have a copy of this. If anyone has one we sure would appreciate being able to check it out!


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Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 5:19pm
I believe Tenn was referring to the long screw in the top, I was responding about the screw in the bottom being flat and not rounded.

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Semper Fi


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Mar 17 2019 at 5:21pm
My comment was about the lower hinge screw that goes into the bottom of the pistol grip .vs the grip screw. Now that you mention the grip screw, the head of the lower hinge screw shown earlier reminds of the grip screw head.


Posted By: 03eleven
Date Posted: Mar 18 2019 at 4:54pm
Sorry to beat this horse to death but I was on the CMP site and ran across this listed as "foreign wood". Just wondering if someone could educate me on the subject?

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=48342&n=Inland-M1A1-Carbine-66308155


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Mar 18 2019 at 6:35pm
03eleven, I know that Greece had produced or had produced for them M1A1 stocks, I also know that at one time the CMP had Greek Returned Carbines, maybe the case here.

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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member



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