Type III barrel band w/bayonet lug
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URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3709
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Topic: Type III barrel band w/bayonet lug
Posted By: Paul1262
Subject: Type III barrel band w/bayonet lug
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 2:33pm
| I have read that a Winchester carbine produced between Nov 44 and Jan 45 having a type III band would be marked "C". Is it possible that the band could also be marked "SA" and still be correct? |
Replies:
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 3:28pm
Yes, but it's not a one hundred percent proven thing, just very close to it given the number of late Winchesters with type three bands other than the Cowles one you mentioned. |
Paul1262 wrote:Posted By: Paul1262
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 5:19pm
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My research indicates type 3 barrel bands were marked as follows: Winchester: C Inland: AI KI SI HI UI No other WW II contractor made these. Other WW II markings: AMCO JM SA MMQ C GM Q Diamond with a D in it or unmarked. If I have a Winchester dated December 1944, could a type III band stamped SA be correct? |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 5:44pm
| AMCO, SA, D in a diamond, (Donaldson?) and various Inland marked ones have been seen on later Winchester carbines. What is the first part of your serial? My remembrance is they started using type three barrel bands in February or so of 45. |
Posted By: Paul1262
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:09pm
| First four digits are: 6585 |
Posted By: Paul1262
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:11pm
| Serial number is in the production range of Nov 44 - Jan 45. |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 6:57pm
|
Paul, If those are the first four digits of the serial then you are safely in the range of the type barrel band, thus a SA barrel band is a strong possibility. Also, you serial is more a May 45 or possible June 45 production date. Has the front sight ever been off or can you tell? |
Posted By: Paul1262
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 7:26pm
| The uscarbinecal30m1.com web site - "M1 Carbine Serial Number Production Chart" offers an approximate date of Nov 44 - Jan 45 for a serial number range of 6449868 - 6629883. There is no sign of the front sight ever being removed. |
Posted By: Bubba-7
Date Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 7:28pm
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Inland moved the firing proof some time before the type 3 band started showing up. Winchester did not move the PW until the type 3 bands were on the carbine. So on most Winchesters the location of the PW will tell you which type band was originally on it. Also if it had a type 3 band already on it, there would not be a reason to replace it during a rebuild unless the band was broken. I know for a fact, in my early years, I removed original SA, JM, D, type 3 barrel bands from 7.2 Winchesters and restored them with either, a W or low C bands. And I thought I was smart because some book said the was right. Everybody on ebay knows that W and low C bands were used by Winchester. Right. Ask any seller.
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Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Oct 10 2018 at 9:05am
First, if the front sight shows no signs of ever being off then I'd feel pretty strongly that the SA band is original. Second, that site, while having some decent info, is wildly off in their carbine serial range estimates. Your receiver would have not been stamped till late April of 45 and finished into a carbine for most likely weeks later. |
Posted By: Paul1262
Date Posted: Oct 10 2018 at 10:32am
| John, thanks for your observations and comments - much appreciated. |
Posted By: kar6666
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 3:59pm
| Years ago a old carbine collector friend of mine told me he thought some late WRAs may be original with the "diamond D" type bands and some also had factory applied rotary safeties. I didn't really agree but I also knew he had handled a lot more carbines than I had so maybe he was right all the time. |
Posted By: allend
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 6:07pm
| When were the type 3 bands used marked w? |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 7:27pm
I believe they were postwar. There is an article on the Winchester"Box of ten" with various bands and safeties mentioned. The Winchester 6-7 million block update lists other bands on original carbines. I wonder how many people removed and replaced with what they thought to be correct to only remove an original. Think about it, If the Cowles band was the only original then why are there not that many around? Would rebuild take off a good part and put on a replacement if they did not have to? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 7:30pm
Never by Winchester, but have seen them listed as both wartime and postwar replacements. |
Posted By: kar6666
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 9:09pm
| The only W marked bands I ever remember seeing were on two bbls another carbine collector friend of mine had. I don't remember a lot about except they had the same front sight cuts as a IBM bbl. I guess they probably had a P proof on them and were not proofed the same as a WRA bbl. would have been. My friend was sure they were WRA because of the W mark on the band. He hunted for years for a very late receiver to mount them. I remember he found a 6 million + receiver like new and mounted one. He died a few years ago and I remember seeing his son trying to sell that same carbine at a gunshow. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the great looking late WRA was just a parts gun. I don't know if he sold it or not I just said that I couldn't use it. |
Posted By: watchdog49
Date Posted: Nov 01 2018 at 9:34pm
So, I have a Winchester carbine with serial # 6,484,xxx. It appears to have been thru a postwar rebuild, but now I am wondering about the Type 3 barrel band. Looks to me like the carbine was initially outfitted with a type 3 band, because the firing proof is not covered by the type 3 band currently installed. But, I always have assumed the current band is a replacement, because it is marked JM. Now I'm wondering -- could this band be the one original to the rifle, or is it definitely a replacement?  
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Posted By: tenOCEE
Date Posted: Nov 02 2018 at 9:04pm
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Someone could probably search CMP for Brian's posting emphatically saying either the W or low C bands (can't remember which) were a USGI contract, and absolutely post war. Shouldn't be a hard find on that forum.
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Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 7:20am
I actually read that post the other day, it was about a CMP member swearing that the dimple welded, low C was for sure used by Winchester even though Brian repeatedly shot the guy down. There are some that will believe only what they want to believe in relation to their milsurp weapons. |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 7:26am
Looks like it's been there a very long time, to the point where I think it's possibly original. The barrel markings are for sure where you'd expect to see them on a WRA carbine with a type 3 band. |
Posted By: allend
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 9:47am
| I have a S. G. 585 range Winchester barrel no marks on the barrel as to where the sight was ever removed. I know it's a mix master. Trigger group is Inland. My band has a small w and nothing else. Could be the barrel was a replacement and the band was added then . |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 10:34am
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Saginaw SG made their own barrels so I would say it is unlikely that the barrel was original to the receiver. Winchester replacement barrels have been observed with the IBM saw cut behind front sight as mentioned in a previous post. Does yours have the cut behind the sight? Bottom line SG stopped producing the carbines before the t3 bands showed up. The band would not be original to the carbine but may be original to a replacement barrel @Paul HI and UI T3 bands? Where did you see that? According to CCNL 356 article on type 3 bands the following have been observed on Winchester carbines that appear to be original AI AMCO D in Diamond JM J.M.Q. JI KI MMQ SA SI Interesting to note that there is mention of what we are calling wartime and postwar Cowles bands found in wrap dated 1958. So this means just because you find a high C does not mean it was war issue. I wonder if there are differences which would separate them out ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 10:55am
Hmm, here is a fine line. Evidence suggests Winchester did use W marked bands. They have been reported on Winchester carbines with stainless steel barrels ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: allend
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 11:25am
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There is no cut behind the sight. No evidence the front sight has been removed either. I figured the band was added at rebuild. The band is the only thing I have not identified as to what era it is from. I have had this rife since 72 and only reaserched it over the last few years. Thank you for your input. |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 11:41am
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allend, Is the finish consistent on barrel, band, front sight suggesting that it was assembled and then finished or refinished? SG like Inland you can see a shadow where the band sat while the finish was applied. Look near the gas cylinder. If assembled after finish then there should be scratches from installing the front sight which was typical at Winchester. At rebuild, if they sandblasted and refinished then you would possibly not see original install marks. What color is the finish? Can you post a picture?
------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: allend
Date Posted: Nov 03 2018 at 11:56am
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I have no clue as to how to post pictures. The band is blued. The barrel is park. Finish. There is a lot of patina starting all over. If you like I can email a pic if you like to see it. Thank you. |