Print Page | Close Window

LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3407
Printed Date: Mar 28 2024 at 8:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip
Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Subject: LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip
Date Posted: Apr 02 2018 at 11:16pm
Hey guys, love your forum, and the membership....thanks so much for all the info I've been reading over the last 3 weeks non stop on here. So much great knowledge!

So without further ado, and doing so in as concise of manner as possible I will list the rifle specs, and the problems I need help working out. Today I took a Winchester mix carbine to the range for the first time. I just bought it two weeks ago for my father who had his stolen some 40yrs ago. It's a special rifle to say the least for the both of us.   I waited two weeks to shoot it in order to fully strip, inspect, fill out a carbine data sheet, and then lube it properly. I also needed some time to get a few types of ammo, and a few new/different types of mags. Below you will see the extent I was able to break the rifle down in the first picture (all got disassembled outside the bolt extractor/ejector, and unstaking the gas piston).



Pictured below is the complete Carbine Data sheet for this rifle, denoting the particular parts that might be relevant to you guys who potentially can help me.



Now that you guys know the rifle's specs....here are the types of ammo and mags I used today....regardless of which mag I tried, I experienced malfunctions that to me at least seemed unrelated to mag issues.

AMMO:   Lake City USGI Surplus Ball Carbine M! ammo 110gr FMJ
      
        PRVI PPU 110gr FMJ brass cased

        TULAmmo 110gr. FMJ steel cased


MAGs:    3 USGI excellent condition 15rd (1 winc/2 marked "u")

        1 USGI NOS 30rd unmarked mag

        2 brand new Korean 30rd mags



So now you know the rifle, mags, and ammo....last part is the actual malfunctions. Out of 100rds fired 50-60rds malfunctioned in one way or another. There were 3 main types of malfs I experienced.

1. The first type of malfunction I experienced, and by far the most prevalent to occur was light primer strikes resulting in the round not firing, needing to be ejected, and another fresh round chambered in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 40 of them were light primer strikes. I was ultimately able to recycle most of the light primer struck rounds except for a few I saved to take pics of in order to post here for help. The pics below illustrate the light primer strikes in comparison to a couple of actual spent cases with primer strike marks that were deep enough to trigger ignition of the primer




2. The second type of malfunction I had was stovepipe jams resulting in a simple flick of the thumb to clear, however once the case was cleared, bolt sent home with next round chambered....it would always then be a light primer strike. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 5 were stovepipe jams.

3. The third type of malfunction I had was basically a bolt over base malfunction resulting in the mag needing to be removed, clearing of the round, reinserting the mag, and then chambering a new round. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 3 were bolt over base type malfs.

4. Lastly, the fourth type of malf I experienced were stuck cases in the barrel, requiring a wood dowel and heavy tap in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 2 were stuck cases. Noteworthy is the fact that both stuck cases happened with the TULAmmo steel cases.


So in summery,

50 malfunctions in a little less than 100 rounds fired.

40 were light primer strikes

5 were stovepipe jams

3 were bolt over base malfs

2 were stuck cases


Finally, and why I shouldn't have ever bought my first boxes of steel crap.....3 split cases occurring only with the cheap TULAmmo steel cases stuff. Never seen this happen before, not sure if it's ammo, or it's a headspace/chamber issue???/




PLEASE help gents, I mainly own Colt/LMT/KAC rifles these days, and they go honestly thousands and thousands of rounds without 1 failure, year after year (i know apples to oranges, but either way a rifle should function correctly given it's quality built). I have little experience in dealing with problematic guns, and this is the first firearm I've ever owned that jammed right off jump street. Guess I've been lucky til now:)




Replies:
Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:24am
Light strikes probably due to dirt buildup INSIDE the bolt. Take it apart, clean and oil it and I'd think you would be good to go.

Feed issues, assuming good ammo, could be due to magazine or its catch. I can't really tell from your picture (sorry old eyes) but 30 round mags require require the late catch to support the extra weight.

Not sure what's up with the Tulammo cases. I've fired hundreds of rounds (sometimes it's stupid cheap) without your issues.


Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 6:53am
Looks like #4 on the datasheet for the mag catch.  Doesn't have the "arm" for 30 round mag support.Did this occur with 30 rnd mag or 15s too?

How did it do on the LC ammo?

Has the headspace been checked? You're having several symptoms which could be contributed to excessive headspace.i.e. splitting of the case neck, light primer strikes, failure to fire.

As stated by blackfish, I would disassemble the bolt and clean/inspect the bolt components and firing pin. In addition to cleaning residue buildup inspect the firing pin tip to make sure it looks eccentric.  FWIW firing pin specs listed in Kuhnhausen's are OAL 2.957"-.004" and pin protrusion .048" min to .060" max.   


Posted By: cali201
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 8:12am
I will never use steel case in my GI carbines steel=hard!
Before you take apart the bolt make sure you get a bolt tool to do so. https://www.ebay.com/i/263581838395?chn=ps&dispItem=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/i/263581838395?chn=ps&dispItem=1


Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 9:23am
I spend a lot of time cleaning my S'G' for the sheer fun of it. You problems sound more like dirt, out of speck. expanded chamber, the split cartridges indicate this. I have been using TulAmmo by the thousands without any misfires.
Check the possibility of a re barrel and overhaul the bolt.
I hope your able to get it working properly, they deserve all the TLC you can give.


-------------
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 11:08am
The carbine is designed to prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer if the bolt is not in full battery. This is to prevent out-of-battery discharges due to long cases, dirty chamber, etc. Did you notice whether the bolt was fully rotated into battery when you had a light strike misfire? Being partially out-of-battery could result in light strikes. Usually the cause of this is a weak recoil spring. Check the length. It should be 10 1/4", no more , no less. Judging from the picture, your recoil spring looks "sprung". Stretching it does not fix the problem. Also, replace it with a USGI spring, not an aftermarket spring. Cost about $10.


BTW, welcome to the Carbine Club Forum from New Mexico!

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 3:48pm
Well after spending all morning first calling all firearm stores, and smiths in the area....every single one of them didn't have either a bolt disassembly tool, nor did they have a .30carbine headspace gauge.   

After another firearm forum also suggested potential headspace issues, and when I further called a few older gents who specialize in these rifles, one a Col. whom I believe was Special Forces in Vietnam, and another gent that just knows these guns like a map also said it could be a possibility. One had the headspace gauge and bolt tool, the other had a bolt tool + another method for us to check headspace.....and both offered to have me over to their own personal lands/homes and would use their tools and know how until I had a sewing machine..., hardly met these older gentlemen. MERICA baby! With the idea of buying my own one time use $100 headspace guage for a carbine.....plus potential other parts that might be required if the headspace isn't the issue after all...I was really starting to question if I got had for a cpl hundred on a gun that someone knew had a catastrophic or major defect such as headspace on a carbine where it would have to be rebarreled or be matched to a bolt, and obviously that usually means one needs to buy/own multiple bolt groups in order to find one to match. So that problem would have been essentially a game over for me..I'd accept I got con'd and sale at a significant loss.

So as you can imagine, I was slowly spiraling down the toilet of a rare M1 carbine - Mk Lemon model.....when I said screw it let's do this inspection again. I started with the bolt given I just now learned a new handy way to pop the bolt by simply maneuvering the slide over the lugs on the bolt.   Once I popped it out, it was very dirty already after only 60 or so rounds we fired yesterday. That called for it to be soaked in MPro7 for 30minutes, then I scrubbed the heck out of the crevis and boltface, especially the extractor area. Once I got it real clean on the bolt face I went to examine this time using a 10x magnifier to better help see problems.....PRAISE Carbine Williams.

Houston...we have figured out the problem, it's one helluva extractor lip failure, and once you guys see the pics you'll wonder how I was able to even shoot a single round given how the cracked extractor is bent into the bolt face, covering a significant area of the bolt face where the bullet should seat.

I'm currently researching the appropriate, or best functioning USGI extractor model to buy today online. Also where to get one would be fantastic as well. This has to be the 1000% cultprit, but do you guys have any part suggestions that I should buy to have on hand?

SO RELEIVED! THANKS gentlemen for all the wonderful replies and help. You guys make the community truly feel like one, the generosity in lending a helping hand from some of you to basically a stranger is a model of behavior we should all try to add into our own lives.

PICS: nasty failure of the extractor..


side view


Top view



Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:24pm
So now the question has to be, what caused the extractor to break like that, also the face of your ejector looks mushroomed, may just be the picture but it does not look right.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 5:48pm
The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged. However, the damaged extractor could definitely cause light strikes probably due to failure to fully lock into battery. Did you notice any bulging at the base of the cartridge?

Still think the recoil spring might also be a contributor. I enlarged your image and measured the spring compared to other parts of known dimensions and determined that it was only 9 3/4" long. If I'm wrong, never mind. But please do check this or you still may have problems after replacing the extractor.

Also, my only experience with steel cased ammo was on my son's AR15. He wanted to try a box of Tula. We were only able to fire one round. The case stuck like those you reported. We also had to drive it out with a dowel. We were lucky, the extractor was okay but there was an extractor shaped chunk missing from the rim of the Tula cartridge. Needless to say, that was the last time we tried to use steel case ammo...anywhere.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 6:26pm
Awesome replies guys and thanks for checking my spring size...here is what I just ordered...


Parts coming from Numrich.....


928640

1× MAINTENANCE TOOL KIT
$31.45
   
seems to good to be true....they had the repro bolt tool alone for $31.45, and then they had the tool kit for the same price that had not only the same bolt tool in it, but a piston nut wrench, and the trigger spring tool.   Who the hell would buy just the bolt tool when for the same price you get another $20+ tool, and then another $10+ tool for that same price. I better shut up and just appreciate it before the company sees their era

1105970

1× EXTRACTOR (WINCHESTER - MARKED W)
$21.15

545220

Hopefully this is the most current generation of extractor or the one with the most reliability and longevity....I couldn't find a place that sold all the different variants of the extractors except one place that had the early one with angled lip. Is type III extractors the latest designed one?

1× SPRING KIT
$17.90

545210

2× MAGAZINE SPRING, REPLACEMENT (FOR 15 RD MAGS CAN BE CUT DOWN SLIGHTLY FOR 5 RND)
$7.70

542310B

1× EXTRACTOR SPRING PLUNGER, NEW REPRODUCTION

$3.70

Last three items are all new springs, prob. won't use them right away given the new extractor gets the rifle running perfect, but I'm sure I'll need them in time


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged.


jackp, Agree, after looking at it again I believe you are correct, type 1 ejector. I guess the angle of the picture had me thinking it looked odd.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 7:14pm
It is a type 1 ejector, as it took me some time to finally figure it out and come to the conclusion to go ahead a record it that way on the data sheet.

Why they did the design like that I have no clue but would love to know the engineer's original thought on that type 1.

Just for kicks, I whipped out what I feel is the best Bolt group made for a combat rifle...the MWS or the Brit's L129A1 BCG vs the mighty M1 carbine bolt group



Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 03 2018 at 8:58pm
You bring up a good point. As far as I know, there is nothing documenting the reason behind the original Type 1 ejector design. There is documentation suggesting that subsequent changes were made to improve ejection angle, to prevent ejected cases from hitting the operating slide and also to reduce manufacturing costs. The revision table on the original engineering drawings should note the reason for change but all Ordnance engineering drawings I've seen have been redacted to remove this information.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 17 2018 at 8:13pm
Range report from two days ago.....

Prior to shooting it this time, I again thoroughly cleaned the entire rifle paying special attention now to the completely disassembled bolt, chamber, and front area of the inside of the receiver. The "USGI" spring kit from Numrich was udder garage.....light rust on springs, some kinda hardened cosmoline type stuff inside of the springs as well...that said, I could have dealt with that, but the real problem with the kit was every spring was outta spec by either it's OAL length, or number of coils. The new recoil spring in the kit measured slightly shorter than the one already in the rifle. Both are around 10.15". The bolt tool and trigger spring tool looked fine though, and both functioned fine as well. The piston wrench was so rusty it looked like it came off Normady beach. The only spring I used out of the kit was the hammer spring, and it didn't have the right number of coils (26.5), however the one in the rifle was bent by a previous owner. Lastly I ordered two USGI 15rd. mag springs + the one that came in the replacement spring kit.....all three springs were shorter than the ones in my Winc/Union Hardware/Inland USGI mags that had most likely been in them for decades. So can't even use the "new" mag springs.

So I cleaned, lubed, replaced extractor with "w" marked one, and lastly put in a "new" hammer spring.   I also bought several more boxes of factory ammo form different companies for function testing as well.

While I dramatically reduced the number of failures, the overall number of light primer struck rounds was still way to high for any self respecting auto loading rifle, much less a military designed one.   Even one failure can ruin a string on a target, put together a dozen of them....and you'll start truly hating that particular firearm.   This rifle, and dumb little GSG-5PK are the only guns I've ever owned that had more than 2-3 failures over years and years of shooting with them.

The worst part is that so many people have had this same issue, but when you research each case, it's usually a different culprit in each one. I've read about this problem being created by a dirty chamber/bolt, bad recoil/hammer spring, outta spec inner receiver bridge for the firing pin, untrimmed or too long cases, firing pin/bolt damage, outta spec hammer that is improperly striking the firing pin and instead hitting part of the bolt's rear area, and probably one or two more causes I'm forgetting at the moment. Oddly enough, headspace is also a potential cause for light primer strikes, however I've yet to read/hear a case where the actual remedy to this was a confirmed outta spec headspace.

Lastly, I ran some of the various factory loads over my Ohler 35P chrono just to get a idea, as I'm waiting to do a real accuracy/velocity report when I have a 100% functioning rifle.   Only did a 5rd string for each type so the standard deviation measurements aren't of any real meaning, but knowing how hot each type of ammo was helped add one more constant in this problem rifle full of variables.

Just for a small data point, I ran three types over the chrono......

Aquila 110gr. FMJ: Median was 1937fps (other's testing has shown my same number for Aquila, however I heard several years ago it ran as low as 1750fps.       

USGI lake city 110gr. Ball LC 72: 1943fps (seemed slow)     

Monarch(PPU/PRVI) 110gr. FMJ: 1977fps(also seen other peoples results showing low to mid 1900 range)


Here is the spreadsheet for the reliability testing from this last range trip....
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sJYaGQ2o000GQ0Fhj8FHuv4RZ4FP--y_O3B60wArPLk/edit?usp=sharing" rel="nofollow - USGI WRA M1 Carbine reliablity test (4/11/18)




Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Apr 18 2018 at 8:05am
FWIW, here's a previous post on Hammer Spring coil count.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/counting-hammer-spring-coils_topic3299_post20995.html?KW=#20995" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/counting-hammer-spring-coils_topic3299_post20995.html?KW=#20995


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 18 2018 at 10:35am
Great report! However, after reading it a couple of times I wasn't able to determine that you confirmed that the bolt was in full battery when you had light strikes. Even if the bolt is fully forward but not rotated into full battery, it will cause light strikes.     

-------------
JackP


Posted By: patrickduis
Date Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 3:37am
I also had some issues with my 1943 IBM .30M1 with my reloads. When using factory PRVI ammo I never had a problem, but when I started reloading using S&B primers I sometimes needed to fire them up to 3x before they actually fired. After replacing the S&B small rifle primers with Federal I never ever had a misfire. My armourer told me the S&B primers (look like brass) are a little bit harder than the Federal ones (that look like nickel plated).
On your picture I see PRVI boxes, did those rounds all fire ok? Or is the box just used for your reloads.
I reload previously fired PRVI/S&B brass with 13.3grs Vihtavuori N110 behind a 110grs FMJ bullet.


-------------
Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member
Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves
www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 4:22pm
Has the firing pin been measured?
Is the Ejector too long ? Or binding ?

It's like something is killing the forward energy.
Like JackP, I'd want to know that bolt is FULLY rotated.
Check for burrs on the left lug's rail.

CH-P777


-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 7:59pm
I just set 4 bolts upright like in the picture and tried to view them from the same angle.
On all of mine the tip of the firing pin was much more visible than the one here.

Please measure your firing pin........

CH-P777





-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 9:10pm
Painter, I agree that it looks like the firing pin is short but then I would expect light primer strikes to be 100%. The OP's report shows the rate of light strikes to be only 12.5% (10 out of 80). I believe his problem is more likely related to binding of the bolt during final rotation into battery or perhaps hammer face to bolt interference (there is only a few thousandth of an inch clearance between them at full battery).

-------------
JackP


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Apr 20 2018 at 9:42pm
JP
I pretty much agree
Pin just looks short....
Something appears to be killing the momentum
I'd be real surprised if it's going in to full battery, from what I've read here.
Guess we'll see when he follows up.
I hate not being able to be hands on.
Just repaired one a short while back that had too long of a Ejector- Eguns replacement, he'd got a deal on ;-( Causing light strikes and eject problems.
Semi local smith said new barrel was the only answer. Good cleaning, couple $'s in the part, he's now at about 700+ rounds down range, ready to clean again. Gotta be a sooty mess by now !

Figured I'd throw some thoughts out there on this one while the hood was still up ;-) 

Cheers
CH-P777


-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Apr 23 2018 at 4:13pm
A possible kill of momentum is the slide rubbing on the inside of the stock. have seen this several times where cycling the action everything checks out, but once in the stock a problem can be observed.

-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 24 2018 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

A possible kill of momentum is the slide rubbing on the inside of the stock. have seen this several times where cycling the action everything checks out, but once in the stock a problem can be observed.



Well now this is interesting, I have another reliability report to post, but this time I had a mix of light primer strikes, and stovepipes.

I again extensively cleaned the carbine before shooting, as well as changing the extractor spring for a "new" one that came in numrich kit. Also continued using the "new" recoil spring from that same kit.

I see two potential things that are killing momentum...


First pic shows some kinda rubbing inside the stock...which as noted could be killing momentum. But when I assembly everything....it isn't touching to my naked sense.


The second is where the hammer is appearing to hit the trigger housing causing a burr there.



Interesting about this last session...ended it with tula ammo, and had only 2 outta 45 failures. Go figure


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sJYaGQ2o000GQ0Fhj8FHuv4RZ4FP--y_O3B60wArPLk/edit?usp=sharing" rel="nofollow - USGI WRA M1 carbine reliability report (4/18/18)


Firing pin length:



RE: Burrs on the hammer face or rear bolt face... I checked, and everything seems smooth.


Posted By: topsoldier
Date Posted: Apr 24 2018 at 10:38pm
For one..you may have a bad barrel/chamber. Everything you mention leads to barrel/chamber. Extractor...firing pin. The thicker primers are no help either.. Stove piping...not enough gas to fully blow the bolt all the way back...recoil spring..?? Sorry to say, as a retired US Govt Aromrer, the only intelligent way to come up with answers, is to have the weapon in hand...
Opinions are like (you know what) everyone..has one..

-------------
NAVY/ARMY ARMORER - MATCH - SNIPER


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 9:11pm
Gentlemen, after a solid month of doing nothing but trying to fix this carbine....spending $150 on tools and parts to do so, was on it's literal last leg this morning at the range.   If it had any light primer strikes, or stovepipes after a fourth extensive cleaning, inspecting, replacing parts, and then test firing at the range, I was going to immediately start the part out process to get my money back.

Last night's prep for today's testing was by far the most extensive effort on my part to clean, find, and address the problem/s.

I went ahead and removed the staked piston nut and piston in part because I was comfortable doing it as I'm a long time AR builder who stakes lots of parts on them.   Once the piston and nut were removed I cleaned inside the area, and used a proper sized drill bit to ensure a clear gas pathway inside the gas port. I then also replaced the existing piston for a new one just because it couldn't hurt.

Next, I took one the longer ejector springs, and a newly purchased ejector type 3 to replace my type 1 that was in it. I grinded flat a little bit off the spring to bring it closer to Reisch's specs, and then spent what felt like eternity getting the ejector nub to seat inside the tapered hole. That said, once it was done it felt much better than the one it had in it...as the ejector fits rather loose inside the spring whereas my new one fits like a glove, very tight. Based on later evidence I'll note, this change to a new stiffer spring and more importantyly from a Type 1 to type 3 ejector yielded extremely dramatic results.

Next I replaced the extractor spring with a new one that was slighttly longer than Reisch's spec.

Next I replaced the unmarked firing pin it had for a new Quality Hardware marked NL-Q firing pin that was in spec according to Reisch, however it too was on the smaller side of the acceptable limit. Upon examing both firing pins at 20x, I noticed very little differencees. There was a slight ring or perhaps mushrooming of the firng pin tip on the existing one. However the new NL-Q one did have a signifacantly smaller channel cut or removed area that captured it when the bolt is fully assembled vs the older one in it.

Next I replaced the shorter trigger group housing pin with a longer one that I had in the "rebuild kit" I bought that included almost all of these items.

Next, I replaced the recoil spring with a new one that came in the kit, yet still measured short at 10 3/16", with a little stretch it hits the spec no problem.

Next to address the potential issue of the stock rubbing killing momentum I built temporary bedding supports that mounted on the stock's bridge, and then going the entire length of the channel at the end of stock. Again, to test stock rubbing or other parts rubbing against the stock negatively. Ultimately I seriously doubt this is what magical made my WInchester a 100% reliable rifle again.

Next I installed a NOS M underlined mag catch for my 3ord mags.

120rds of 5 different types of ammo included 30-40 rds of tula steel.....every single one was perfect and discharged. Had two mag issues when trying 30rders but I know that's mag related not rifle.

Even more interesting and telling that somehow this rifle got the magic cure.....all 120+ rds landed b/t 2-3oclock, and about 4 feet away. Very strong ejections, and unreal ejection pattern consistently. All 120+rds would have landed in a 2x2 box I bet.   It was so consistent, and clean that two different shooters made comments about it.

I don't want to jinx myself but today was such a dramatic positive expierence, with zero malfunctions, that I believe it's been fixed. The accuracy was also fantastic...My little carbine put the beat down on 2 ARs in .223, a Mini 14, and a 45magnum lever gun on a 125yd steel torso challenge. Once I got my Kentucky wndange hold....I was getting 95% hits whereas the best AR got about 60-70%.

Also collected my first bit of tech data on my rifle, and the carbines in general to some degree.   

Factory .30 carbine ammo 50yd evaluation.....



Lastly meet a great new friend who got to liquidate a CMP store/warehouse...and has a huge array of no doubt true USGI parts as they came in WWII with the packaging and such. Some packages are even dated. He also has a number of USGI 15rd mags still in their wrappings from WWII. Thousands of the various small springs, some real collectable pieces like IP recoil lug. I'm sure you guys have seen this a million times, but to dig through the real USGI part crates made feel like a child all over again. Ultimately it was his authentic parts that fixed the problem as well.



I can't even begin to describe the relief first and foremost I feel now, secondly I can't thank this forum and several members enough for contining to try and help me even when we were beating what looked like a dead horse. Thirdly, I can't sum up in a brief manner just how damn fun it was today having a 100% reliable carbine that was shooting laser beams.

The sweet is never sweet without the bitter as they say, and the amount of knowledge, and new gunsmithing techniques I've gained in a relative short time having to deal with this big mystery problem is certainly worth something imho.   Also definitely a reminder to myself to not give up when you care about something immensely, as you never know when things will work out.

Thanks gents so much, and if folks are interested Ill continue to posts my data, pics, and perhaps a YT vid or two....maybe one where I test the full envelope of it's performance at long ranges...as that is kinda my channel's specialty.




Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 9:49pm
That is good news, glad to hear you finally got that Carbine running right.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Apr 29 2018 at 10:04pm
Thanks Wayne, appreciate your excellent replies in this thread, as well as your service. In another life I'd love to be a Marine:)


Posted By: patrickduis
Date Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 2:55am
That is good news and congratulations with this good result!

-------------
Various Inlands, Underwoods, I.B.M.s and an NPM
NVBIW, NVWHT, NVBMB, KNSA member
Conservator Military Historical Museum Achtmaal U.S. 104th I.D. Timberwolves
www.militairhistorischmuseumachtmaal.nl


Posted By: James K
Date Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 12:40pm
Wow Man! You jumped in over your neck and made it happen big time! Congrats! I loved the Marines too as gave Antos guys an ice machine for their club, helped mount a 30 cal mini in the back of a convoy escort Ford jeep, supplied 40' refridgerated trailer for their parties, installed an aftermarket air conditioning unit in a Chev black sedan with two gold stars on license plate which Charles and I tested on a hot afternoon by driving into Marine headquarters gate where Rob the President's son in law operated out of. You should have seen the salutes we got! Marines gave us a Jeep (sure it was stolen) I gave to my LT. and they supplied us with Crown Royal by the case. And we did much more.


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Apr 30 2018 at 9:19pm
I'm glad to hear that your light primer strike/stovepipe problems are behind you. It sounds like you are having pretty good success with accuracy too. So far I haven't found a carbine that will match my AR's in accuracy. I have a .300 AAC Blackout with an E.R. Shaw barrel that's sub-MOA with Freedom Munitions reloads. My best M1 Carbine accuracy with an early QHMC has been achieved with Federal American Eagle ammo. I average 1.362 MOA with it vs. 2.65 MOA with American Freedom or 3.85 MOA with Sellier & Bellot ammo.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 08 2018 at 6:26pm
The SAGA continues......singling out the source for the problem, Kryptonite???

I go yesterday to confirm the rifle was indeed 100% like it should be, and boom all my light primer strikes/FTFs starting occurring the second shot into the range session. I had several more during the first 10rds I fired.....at that point, I almost threw the rifle in the lake I was so mad....but I remember that I shimmed the stock last time, and as I already mentioned above, I didn't think it was part of the fix so didn't do it this time. Not to mention I feel it's prob. bad for the carbine to have it's barrel floating higher than normal, and requiring more force than usual to get the barrel band settled over the barrel. Also while it def. fixed all the reliability problems last week, the barrel band wouldn't stay affixed in the proper location and it would float forward after a box or two of shooting with it. At any rate before trashing the rifle I created a makeshift shim at the range with folded cardboard from a ammo box roughly the same size as the other shims I made last week. Once I did this......the gun didn't have another single FTF or light primer strike after 135rds. So I think it's now safe to say that whatever my epic problem is, it lies within the stock no pun intended.

Anyways, I've yet to read about this highly unique problem of mine regarding a stock issue from another carbine owner having problems after reading copious amounts of troubleshoot post on several M1 carbine forums.


I don't even know where to look inside the stock to see if I need to add material that at one time was lost thus making what I can only assume the receiver group going lower than design inside of the stock. Also the barrel band retaining pin sits a bit to low in it's channel and doesn't spring forward enough to really anchor the barrel band in place


Do you have an opinion on my stock's problem, and if it can be fixed. I need to find out if my stock can be fixed, and if not buy another stock...especially a WRA if I can find one. If I can't figure this out than I obviously need a new stock, and yours seems great given it functions perfectly fine with a barreled receiver inside it. So I'm very interested in your stock. What do you mean by it needs filler....it that the area by the buttstock that is chipped?

The temp fix: Shims



Size of the shim....




Lastly, my barrel band spring is too low because of the channel cut out for it in the stock empeds it from going up more, and it also barely engages the barrel band detent hole as it's not bent forward enough, as well as being slightly short due to the angle that its at when engages the detent hole, whereas a straight one has the length to clear the detent hole wall. Suggestions, or tricks?



I really want to keep this stock as it's a WRA model with no rebuild arsenal marks, or anything but the WRA cartouche. Beyond that, I find it's finish to be beautiful especially in the sunlight...when you can even see some faint tiger stripe markings.

You can kinda see the stripes in the pic below from the range session yesterday....


I really am sorry to keep asking for help gents, and I truly to appreciate each and every reply, and any help offered.


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 08 2018 at 7:37pm
From your description, it sounds like your problem, at least one of them, seems to be the slide dragging inside the stock? This could conceivably be alleviated by raising the barrel a bit with your shims.

I would try the following - Take some chalk dust, flour, cornstarch, or similar and dust the well inside of your stock where the slide tracks. Then without your "shims", assemble the rifle properly (barrel should NOT pop up inside the channel prior to installing the handguard - that's not proper) and manually cycle the action a few times. Then disassemble the rifle and see if there is any evidence of rubbing inside your stock. That would be where you need to remove wood. Perhaps stock is warped somehow?



Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: May 08 2018 at 8:03pm
Simply drive the spring out and put a sufficient amount of paper matches,used of course in the channel to raise the spring.


-------------
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 11 2018 at 9:33pm
Thanks blackfish, and Charles for such excellent suggestions. I plan on doing both suggestions.

First to blackfish's recommendation:

This truly was a fantastic suggestion as I indeed discovered an area in the stock in which the slide is rubbing against. Below are the pictures detailing my results...

Entire left inside and bottom inside of the front well of stock were rub free as shown below..

left side of assembled action/slide


Now upon looking at the right inside of the stock, I find a nice rub mark on the right inside wall of the stock, and a corrosponding marking on the slide...






Not sure how to proceed from here, as I really hesitate to grind on the stock. Any suggestions?

I will report back on how Charles' suggestion works once I assembly the carbine again.




Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 11 2018 at 11:37pm
Hmm, is your recoil plate screwed in tight?
Try loosening a bit and see if it still rubs

-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 11:28am
Good idea Dan. Not only tight but is your recoil plate straight? Remove the recoil plate and reinstall the screw. Is it straight lying in the vertical plane of (pseudo)symmetry of the stock or is it crooked? If the action is twisted going into the stock, that might result in the rubbing you see. At least check that before taking and angle grinder to your slide or sand paper to your stock to remove the offending material


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 8:18pm
You guys are really awesome, stuff is starting to make more sense because of your suggestions.

Upon checking my recoil plate to receiver fitment, I noticed that the bottom portion won't go flush up against my receiver, is this a problem and the potential issue?




Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 5:07am
When you first put the action into the stock, that apparently poor fit is why the barrel is elevated a bit and needs to be pushed down into the barrel channel initially during assembly. Bouncing the assembly's buttstock on the floor will usually seat the action so everying lies flat again and you can put the handguard in place. Ever wonder why buttplates are so beat? Ain't from recoil.

The recoil plate must have some "pinch" on the reciever but not too much. Unless your recoil plate has been overly "tightened" elsewhere, I bet you could push it on to the receiver by hand.

Is the recoil plate screw aligned with the stock, i.e. eschutcheon inserted into the stock "straight" or at an angle?


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:05am
I do not think the plate should go all the way to bottom of receiver. It looks as if there is a designed taper fit. Cannot look into drawings or examples today.


What I have found is over tightened recoil plates may contribute to the rubbing problem. seems exactly in the same spot as you found.

What I do is loosen the recoil plate screw, insert action, rack the slide a few times to settle the action.
Sometimes I put my finger on front of trigger guard  and pull back when racking to help the settling along.

From there I tighten the recoil plate screw till the barrel just starts to rise.I take out the action and repeat a few times to get the recoil adjusted just so.
After that there is no reason to adjust or remove recoil bolt as it is not needed for take down.

Now check for rub. If still rubbing then try a different recoil plate. Also possible stock is warped. If i was to modify anything it would be the stock, not the slide!

Now mind you I am collector, not a shooter. So I do not know how or if this affects accuracy. Will let others debate, but as I understand it the CMP competition rules do not allow for bedding of the recoil plate

I have seen washers under the recoil plate, JB weld or bedding of the recoil plate. I do not think the recoil plate was designed to be so tight into the wood, rather I think it was meant to be lifted and bolt as an adjustment. If you look at a RSG stock you will see a great many left the factory with a decent gap around the recoil plate area. I do not think ordnance would have accepted these if there was an issue.




-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 12:47pm
Picture (shamelessly plagiarized from BQ97) shows that the intalled recoil plate should fit receiver without "gaps".



It looks like your tab which fits between the receiver prongs for the trigger housing may be a bit wide. If you can't push your's together better then you might dress the recoil plate's tab with a file for a closer fit.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 2:20pm
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf

Paragraphs (4)-(4c4) of the above article, Carbine Shooting with Accuracy from the CMP, describes how to get proper recoil plate/receiver fit. The way it is explained in the article somewhat contradicts what is written in some of the posts above.

Also in the picture you posted of the slide after you chalked the stock makes it look like the slide is hitting the stock mostly on the right front side? Are your barrel/receiver index marks aligned? Are the flats level?

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf

Paragraphs (4)-(4c4) of the above article, Carbine Shooting with Accuracy from the CMP, describes how to get proper recoil plate/receiver fit. The way it is explained in the article somewhat contradicts what is written in some of the posts above.

 I am not a shooter, I do not engage in the competitions. 
I would say that there is sound advice in that PDF, However understand there are different types of competitions that the CMP (and NRA) hold with different rules.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf?ver=04142018" rel="nofollow - http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf?ver=04142018

Section 4.2 page 35 has the rules for "as issued military rifles" and in each category states:
The use of shims made of any material in the action and barrel bedding areas of the stock is prohibited 

However other competitions such as the EIC Excellence in Competition rules allow glass beading.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=05082018" rel="nofollow - http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=05082018

Bottom line do your homework and read the rules. "I read on the internet" does not make it so.

Basically the PDF and what I wrote are similar yet different. Tighten the recoil plate with action in place. If you were to tighten the recoil plate firm without action  you may be damaging the stock by over compressing the wood, then creating damage by pulling barrel down with hand guard and band.

What was good in the article is it pointed to  TM9-1276 Feb 1953 pages 125 and 126:
"where recoil plate is bedded so deeply in the stock that it interferes with proper alignment of action, the stock must be rejected"

I guess this is why I see stocks with the glass beading or epoxy trying to fix them. Later stocks have more recoil support at the bottom. there is only a slot for the tang on the rear of recoil plate, so the recoil plate engages the stock much better.

so consider what the interaction of the recoil plate to the stock is, if you have a stock that recoil sits too low would you shim or bead under the tang or where the bottom of the recoil plate locks up, or both?
again my method would be a start to see if that is the issue causing the slide from binding with stock. 

looking at tm9-1276 5 June 1943 page 107:
"Recoil plates of the latest design have integral spring which provides spring tension between parts and takes up slack due to wear"

This is where the OP was concerned with the bottom of recoil plate not bottoming out, it is not supposed to.
I do agree that the recoil plate should fit between the receiver lugs. Further if there was slop it would let the receiver walk side to side. Should be snug if possible.

the TM's and the CMP pdf both mention that there must be some barrel float. The PDF mentions that if the barrel is more than 1/8 inch high that you could cause damage.




-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 9:02pm
Is the CMP 1/8 inch "spec" for barrel "float" as shot or does this 1/8" represent elevation of the barrel PRIOR to seating of the action into the stock???

Why might there be a difference? (it's the tab)

I note that the handguard does NOT compress the barrel into the stock, at least not after banging the buttstock into the rug or firing a few shots. If you subseequently remove the barrel band/hanguard, the barrel does NOT spring 1/8" up. At least mine doesn't, does your's???


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:39pm
Gentlemen thanks so much for such in depth replies, and suggestions. Seriously it's truly appreciated.

The escutcheon appears to be a bit off a bit, but not by much.

The barrel/receiver index marks are all lined up, and when on a flat surface the bottom of the lugs appear all level.

When I put the reciever into the recoil plate and seat everything properly, I can still move the barrel left and and right...as in the recoil plate doesn't hold the reciever in the same alignment once it's seated.


Anybody have spec stock wall measurements?

Also my recoil plate's bottom slot that fills the reciever's lugs doesn't fit flushly, or anywhere close as show below, and compared with the one blackfish posted last page....

Mine


One Blackfish posted (org. from BQ97) ....



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 11:50pm
A picture speaks volumes.
You need a recoil plate.
Pm me your address, think i have a better one on the bench.

Blackfish, the CMP pdf stated 1/8
I think the TMs either say some lift or specify a ammount..
Will check in morning. I would think that the barrel should spring up after seating, but will confirm tomorrow.

Hmm last pic caught my eye!
Anyone want to play?
Look at data sheet and ccnl 336.
Anything out of place?

-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 1:44am
Wow, what an amazing offer New2brass, talking about paying it forward. I will certainly take you up on your offer and send you a PM.

This recoil plate never had any markings, and upon it's first cleaning/inspection I discovered a large pitting area on the side of it. Now that I read more about the recoil plates, I see that mine's cast as seen by the faint cast line down the middle of it. What has me really perplexed is why it had such a small tab to fit inside the larger area inside the receiver's lugs? Do they make a different recoil plate for the commercial versions of these carbines?

Also I dressed it (inside bottom area) a bit like I read to do above, and in another thread on the CMP forum....and brought the rear face closer to being flush with the receiver. Then I repeated the flour test for a rub.....and the results appear to have at least reduced the amount of rub based on the first time. I used the same test method both times as well.

first time...


after recoil plate adjustments..


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 6:55am
The dimensioned drawings I have suggest that in that region of a (potbelly) stock, the wood has, ignoring tolerances, an outside width of 1.8" and a well width of 1.2", meaning the side wall thickness should be about 0.3"

I would wait for a good recoil plate before making permanent changes to your stock.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Hmm last pic caught my eye! Anyone want to play?
Look at data sheet and ccnl 336. Anything out of place?


OK Dan, just read CCNL 336 and looked at his data sheet. I'll give it a shot. According to his serial #, his receiver should be a type 3 with an integral op spring housing.

Concerning the barrel lift with proper recoil plate/receiver fit:

Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual, page 187 says:
"Ideal recoil plate fit is achieved when the recoil plate cam positively engages the receiver hook and secures the receiver- and a slight downward pressure on the barrel (approx_1-3 lbs.) is needed to make the front band (i.e., the inside front band ring) contact the nom. .37" radius barrel relief cut in the forestock."

TM 9-1276 Feb 53, page 125-126 says:
"With slight pressure tending to push the barrel in the stock, rap the butt end sharply; the action should snap into place. The action should be suspended by the recoil plate with clearance under the receiver and barrel. Test the action for longitidinal play. If such play exists or the action does not lie properly in the stock, a new stock assembly should be selected or the recoil plate replaced in order to meet the above requirements."


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: markdam
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 1:26pm
LMTmonoMan 

 I know this has been a PIA for you   but I LOVE this Forensic method of problem solving and it also allows us  newbies (myself namely) LEARN   so much!

 Thanks for your patience and thanks to the Forum "experts" being so helpful....  


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 6:32pm
Blackfish, thanks very much for the specs. I agree I'm not gonna alter the stock. I was just curious to see if mine had swelled if I were to mic the walls.

You carbine gurus have me interested in what that potentially means with regards to the CCNL 336. Some of you guy's dedication to the historical accuracy of these rifles is amazing.

I can now see two sides of the carbine love affair, both the collector and the shooter, and then the mix of the two.   My guess is that it's gonna get harder and harder to fall squarely into the shooter category of these rifles in the future given their age, almost completely diminished parts supply, and preserving their extremely important place in firearm history. Ever since I got the carbine I've been watching a lot of WWII documentaries, and it's awesome to see all the carbines in use. Watched a great Iwo documentary, and was stunned at the amount of carbines used by what appeared to be front line Marines.

Markdam, thanks for your encouraging words. I completely agree about giving a huge thanks to the forum experts for being so generous and patient with their time.


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 7:01pm
Here is some more accuracy info that I've collected so far fwiw....Normally I do three groups of ten rounds when testing any modern day rifle with magnified optics, but my technique & perhaps eyes aren't repeatable enough for more than 5rds at a time. With practice I hope to change this. I was quite surprised how hard it is to shoot a group at 100yds with irons.

Monarch vs USGI ammo....50yd/100yd

Also compares back to back range trip 50yd groups w both types of ammo.



Some personal observations, the USGI 100yd group made me smile ear to ear. If I can repeat that over and over again with USGI ammo, I'll be tickled pink.

Secondly, it's amazing how much more accuracte 40+ year old USGI lake city ammo is over currently produced quality brass commerical ammo like Monarch. Sadly it's just to pricey for myself to aquire much of at a time, therefore I think I'm gonna settle on Monarch as the primary ammo for the rifle.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by LMTmonoMan LMTmonoMan wrote:

I can now see two sides of the carbine love affair, both the collector and the shooter, and then the mix of the two.


I think we will all agree no matter where we fall as a collector, shooter or both, we want your carbine to work correctly. I for one am hoping that a different recoil plate is the solution, if not than a different stock may do it and if it comes down to that I have an unmarked pot belly that I could send your way for next to nothing.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 9:55pm
If the OP's recoil plate is cast, then it's a RIA and the tab is only ~ 7/16" wide. Most others are ~ 1/2" wide. So don't replace it with another RIA recoil plate. The Data Sheet in first post noted "W" for Winchester so I was surprised to see it so narrow in the picture that was later posted.

Also, the dimension of the receiver opening in the stock should be 1.23" max. It should be a pretty snug fit with the receiver and center the barrel properly even with a loose recoil plate.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 11:09pm
Thanks Wayne for the offer, if this doesn't fix it I'll definitely be in the market for a new stock.

Fantastic catch, and information Jack...I filled it out within days of buying the carbine, so I wasn't clear on some stuff. I also marked M1A1 instead of the shape of the recoil plate so apparently I thought something else must have been the recoil plate.

I need to go over it again thoroughly now that I have more knowledge to correct anything else wrong. I will make note of any corrections and most likely just redo another sheet for it.

Really wanted to know why mine had such a smaller tab on bottom.

You guys are wizards:)


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 14 2018 at 11:26pm
Jack, according to your measurement, mine is indeed quite out of spec....



Another measurement a few inches forward right before the stock bridge was 1.2485"


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: May 15 2018 at 3:42pm
That measurement is not out of line for a well worn stock. I have a few that are almost that wide. Maybe a few layers of masking tape on the right side will suffice until you get a tighter recoil plate. What's the dimension of the opening in the receiver?

-------------
JackP


Posted By: topsoldier
Date Posted: May 15 2018 at 4:09pm
Well... I see this small problem is going sideways....and up and down...
:-)
First off...the M1 Carbine was not built to be a MATCH rifle. They are fairly accurate...fairly....UNLESS...properly bedded and barrel tensioned to the stock front band area..
This problem that the WINCHESTER is having..is super common..and - can be corrected....but...it requires some small amount of bedding...which is simple - and permanent. Unless you have bedded a rifle before..it will require some explanation... Would take about an hour or so... no - not the explaining.....the bedding job...
I built MATCH Rifles and SNIPER Rifles for Uncle SAM....many of them...bedded over 500 rifles... DO NOT use tape.. WW2 Soldiers used that black "cloth" electrical tape...when in combat, the weapon would heat up and the tape would stick to the stock and rifle...basically bedding the rifle...
Made them shoot a lot better..but were an absolute nightmare to dis- assemble afterwards..
Buy yourself a "kit" .. of 2 tubes of DEVCON PLASTIC STEEL or ALUMINUM....DO NOT buy the fast setting type..You want the 24 hour set of it.. Comes in 2 tubes..like a glue..
After you get it - get back to me and I will lay out - what to do....
Have a great one...... Gene



-------------
NAVY/ARMY ARMORER - MATCH - SNIPER


Posted By: markdam
Date Posted: May 15 2018 at 7:42pm
 🍿 🍿 🍿


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 6:00pm
Just curious..
If the wood ledge the Recoil Plate bottom sets on is 'Mushy' ?

Regards,
Charlie-Painter777


-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 7:40pm
Thanks guys for continuing to show interest, and provide fantastic feedback.

Firstly, I went ahead and did another CC sheet for the rifle to update some parts replaced, as well as correct an error or two. I still found it rather challenging at times to figure out which option to pick. It can be found in the original post of the thread

Secondly, Jack.....thanks for letting me know that it's at least still in usable spec range. When you say what's the dimension for the receiver opening...what area are you referring to?

Gene, thanks firstly for your service, and secondly for the wonderful advice and suggestion. If this comes down to bedding the recoil plate, I'll certainly go buy the materials and get back with you for instructions.

Charlie, it's very firm under the recoil plate as far as my tactile sense goes...



Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 7:49pm
Min wax makes a product I have used very successfully called Wood Hardener


-------------
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 8:00pm
Found this video yesterday on another forum, and it's a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF0qH_zvfdU" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF0qH_zvfdU

It applies to this thread particularly due to it's content being on the carbine's reliability reputation.

I found it very interesting to hear Ken say that Winchesters back in the "all carbines were shooters" days, were shunned over the much better functioning Inlands. This is not the first time I've read that Winchester had a rather lack luster reputation for their carbines.

On page 18 of Ruth's THE M1 CARBINE OWNER'S GUIDE, " Initial testing at Aberdeen Proving Ground indicated that National Postal Meter had the best over-all test record for military Carbines produced during WWII."

He goes on to say that Underwood barrels excelled, and gas piston and nut fit were superior. He mentions Inland being equal to the quality of Underwood in key areas. Then he goes to say the tight tolerances maintained by Winchester made it difficult to fit other mfg'ers gas piston nuts.

Just some random thoughts of mine.


Posted By: James K
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:10pm
I have used over a pint of Plastic steel on a military duce and a half engine freeze crack down side of block, water manifold, air compressor head and water pump. Sanded down and a bit of rattle can black and hard to see and no leaks. Gun stocks and even sat on violins I use Brownels acraglass for cracks. I use the blue painters masking tape cut strips to line each side of crack. This is the "Dam". Put a bead of Acraglass on the crack then flex the wood. Keep flexing and a line will appear on the Acraglass bead. This means the glass is getting into the crack, by doing this the glass will chase the length of the crack. Have done many things with Acraglass but never have done a proper rifle action/barrel bedding, as of yet.


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:34pm
I was referring to the width between the receiver lugs where the recoil plate tab fit. Just concerned that the loose fit might have caused wear in this area. I think that the same movement might have caused the wear in your stock. It looks a little beat up where the side of the receiver fits.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: James K
Date Posted: May 18 2018 at 2:38pm
monoMan, I greatly appreciate the four forum pages of problems and opinions of highly qualified forum members. I write down notes in my spiral note book of great suggestions. To me, learning of the carbine parts history of rebuilds and later owners of what they have done, have helped people like me understanding these problems. Will PM you with a token.


Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: May 18 2018 at 3:42pm
Don't know if I missed something in this thread so I'll add to it an article from TM 9-1276 TO39A-5AD-2   I just finisher reading about light strikes etc. The need to replace the piston nut with a type #2 counter board to increase thrust of operating slide.


-------------
Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 18 2018 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Charles Charles wrote:

Min wax makes a product I have used very successfully called Wood Hardener


When you first posted this, I thought I knew what it was...thinking it was a putty or filler for wood, but I just now googled it and found out it is totally different.

https://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener" rel="nofollow - https://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener

Do you just apply it under and around the recoil plate area, or do you apply it at other points in the stock? Does it stain if you were to place some on the outside of the stock?

Thanks for the heads up Charles, as this product sounds very useful.

Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

I have used over a pint of Plastic steel on a military duce and a half engine freeze crack down side of block, water manifold, air compressor head and water pump. Sanded down and a bit of rattle can black and hard to see and no leaks. Gun stocks and even sat on violins I use Brownels acraglass for cracks. I use the blue painters masking tape cut strips to line each side of crack. This is the "Dam". Put a bead of Acraglass on the crack then flex the wood. Keep flexing and a line will appear on the Acraglass bead. This means the glass is getting into the crack, by doing this the glass will chase the length of the crack. Have done many things with Acraglass but never have done a proper rifle action/barrel bedding, as of yet.


Thanks for the information James. I've heard of Acraglass, but only with regards to bedding. Your procedure for chasing smalls cracks with the "dam" and the acraglass sounds excellent for any future hairline cracks I find on a stock.

Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

I was referring to the width between the receiver lugs where the recoil plate tab fit. Just concerned that the loose fit might have caused wear in this area. I think that the same movement might have caused the wear in your stock. It looks a little beat up where the side of the receiver fits.


Thanks again Jack for the continually help, here is the measurement of the area that I think you are referring to...it's .5265"



I need to get a copy of Kuhnhausen's The U.S. 30 Caliber Gas Operated Carbines: A Shop Manual so that I might have a better idea of what is and isn't in spec.


Originally posted by Charles Charles wrote:

Don't know if I missed something in this thread so I'll add to it an article from TM 9-1276 TO39A-5AD-2   I just finisher reading about light strikes etc. The need to replace the piston nut with a type #2 counter board to increase thrust of operating slide.


That's an excellent data point to add for reference to this thread, as I found out about that two or three weeks ago when checking, replacing, and cleaning the piston chamber. I noticed my new pack of replacement USGI parts that I posted earlier in this thread had the type 1 in it, which was different than the type 2 that was already on the rifle. That lead me to refer back to Riesch's U.S. M1 CARBINES, WARTIME PRODUCTION book to read which one I should go with for better reliability or shootablility, he refers to exactly what you do with regards to TM-9, and improving M2 operation specifically....


I haven't read the TM 9-1276 from start to finish yet, but have skimmed most of it. Haven't read about this change relating to LP strikes though. Might be cause the copy I'm reading isn't updated or something.

I've been reading it here....
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM9-1276_1947.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM9-1276_1947.pdf






Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 18 2018 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

monoMan, I greatly appreciate the four forum pages of problems and opinions of highly qualified forum members. I write down notes in my spiral note book of great suggestions. To me, learning of the carbine parts history of rebuilds and later owners of what they have done, have helped people like me understanding these problems. Will PM you with a token.


I agree 100% about getting so many Carbine experts to share their wealth of knowledge in this thread. Your gesture was amazingly kind, and will be very useful. It truly brightened my day, and I sincerely appreciate it.

Having both you and Markdam weigh in now to let our forum Gurus know that I'm not the only one their helping out is also great to read.

I'm a member of a number of different forums as I've mentioned earlier, and while this is the smallest forum I'm a member of in terms of membership...it is without question, the most no B.S., all tech, no bickering forum I visit. It is also the most friendly, and eager to help out a new member forum I visit. This is truly an excellent resource for learning, and meeting new friends.


Posted By: markdam
Date Posted: May 19 2018 at 12:28am
I get my carbine out of the 10-day waiting period jail this week and I am verymuch looking forward too   starting my own thread with my data sheet 


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: May 24 2018 at 8:28pm
Well gents, I got to have a mini X-Mas in May thanks to two incredibly kind, and helpful members on this forum. I'm truly humbled by both Dan (New2brass), and James (James K) acts of kindness, as it reminds me to always strive to be better person.


Thanks to Dan's fantastic gesture of sending me a new recoil plate, this thread, and the Winchester can begin traveling again towards a final resolution to the problem.

This new recoil plate is a significantly nicer, and more scarce part than the one it replaces which is a post war cast RIA model according to Jack's great info on page 3. As to not waste an potential learning opportunity for myself, and perhaps others, I took several pics to compare the differences b/t the post war replacement recoil plate, and a war time replacement recoil plate.

While trying to identify who's code was P-LW, I came across this thread on another forum which has some well respected members weighing in.
%20" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/archive/index.php/t-36262.html

No final conclusion was made, but two likely manufactures were named.

Obviously I've yet to function check it through live fire, or through the flour rub test, but I did attach it to the assembled receiver while out of the stock, and tested the fit on it. I've read before somewhere.....you shouldn't be able to shake off your recoil plate once you seat it onto the receiver, and with this new one, it's exactly that. I can't shake off this new one with light movement, however my original one wouldn't stay on the receiver tab even when laying still in any other position but vertical. This seems like it could indeed make a huge difference in keeping the proper alignment of the assembled receiver inside of the stock. I will report back both on the rub test, and if it passes there, then it's on to the final check which will be live firing.

left is war time model, right is post war RIA model


Left is RIA post war, right is war time model


left is RIA post war, right is war time model


The new fitment of recoil plate to receiver tab...



Last, but certainly not least for this post, I'd just like to show off my new mag that was so generously sent to me by James. To many it might just look like a normal Colt AR 15 magazine, but from my early research thus far...this might be one of the 1960s era Colt magazines. To me it's akin to adding one of the earliest known made Winchester M1 carbine magazines to your special collection. I also foolishly sold my oldest OEM 20rd Colt magazine that came with my first AR, a Colt 6520 (it wasn't that old though, circa early 2000s)....so this certainly makes up for that mistake that I won't make again.




If good karma does exist in this world, count on it coming to both Dan & James for literally paying it forward! Thanks again gentlemen for both of those wonderful, and very generous acts of kindness. You guys easily made my day!





eta....
Originally posted by markdam markdam wrote:

I get my carbine out of the 10-day waiting period jail this week and I am verymuch looking forward too   starting my own thread with my data sheet


Big congratulations Mark, I see you got a very clean looking WRA. I'm also very glad to learn your first outing with it was trouble free. The only sad part of the story is that you had to do a 10 day waiting period for it which I assume is another one of California's many State gun laws.


Posted By: markdam
Date Posted: May 24 2018 at 8:44pm
Thanks LMT mono man and congratulations on a fine-looking MAG and more importantly the nice looking and hopefully better fitting recoil plate. Hopefully it will solve some if not all of your problems. Yes the 10-day waiting period for a curio Relic is daunting in my humble opinion.


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 6:15am
Well gents, unfortunately I'm in a holding pattern as of now after trying numerous "flour rub test" with both the new and old recoil plates, with everyone still making contact on the right side of the stock as shown in previous pictures. I've been so hesitate to update that part of the information as to not let down the many awesome members, and now friends in this thread whom have weighed in with so much help.   

I also had to admit to myself that I didn't really have a single clue when I bought this first carbine. Sure I spent a month or two trying to learn the red herring clues to look for, but I honestly had no clue firstly what a proper shooting carbine should look like, and measure at, and secondly what makes certain carbines more desirable than others besides the common "corrected" term (members here also help set me straight on that term/form of collecting). While I appreciate the effort that goes on with corrected carbines, I'm now seeing just how much history is getting stripped away from these rifles when trying to correct them. I've come to the conclusion that outside of the diehard carbine lover, historian, or the soldiers that used them post WWII, most folks don't put a single bit of worth on these rifles the moment they left the WWII theatre.

Upon first getting our rifle, I wanted to tap into it's subconscience to hear about all it's amazing stories, sadly we know that's not possibly. From there I figured I'd try to see If I could find out if this rifle had been at least partially "corrected" prior to me buying it, as I had some early hints that it had been due to having all main parts WRA, with a WRA/GHD marked stocked. So I call the gent I bought it from, told him it was a lemon basically but no worries, and then asked him for the rifle's provenance...he said he bought and sold rifles, and had no idea So the trail went cold......for a month or two

Flash forward to last night, and I decided to examine a marking I found on the rifle somewhere, that reignited the trail or history of this particular rifle.....for many, heck most members will surely know what the mystery mark is, and what it means, but for others it might be a fun little exercise.

I scoured the internet for other pics of this marking and while i found one or two, I couldn't find anything as detailed I the ones I'm gonna post below....




While I'd love a NIB 1943-45 USGI carbine, it sure would have lived a sad, boring life over it's 75yrs, while the other over 6million plus carbines have seen the world, fought in the hands of both good and bad guys, seen 3 major wars, and countless conflicts. somewhere


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:18am
Few more measurements, or areas that haven't fully been ruled out.

First off, the below pics show just how tight of a fit when the slide is centered inside the front stock well where it normal rubs the right side....wondering if this falls within specs or perhaps the stock has shrunk.



specific mic'd measurement: 1.2265"

Second area is the slide, more specifically the nub that keeps it attached to, and sliding along the guide track of the receiver.   They're is a nice amount of slope or play when handling the slide's handle at rest. From what I gather this is normal until you have a slide go off the rails literally. That said my research thus far indicated that mine might be a little to worn down. I'm wondering if having a loose or some wobble in my slide is the root of all evil.



Thanks gents in advance for any thoughts on this.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:27am
Looks to me that the marking is a double stamped Italian FAT stamp as discussed in this post http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/ibm-barrel-markings_topic3419.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/ibm-barrel-markings_topic3419.html

Now as far as your carbine still not working right, I believe a different stock is worth a try. As mentioned before I have a unmarked pot belly, in really good shape, that I can send your way pretty cheap, PM me if interested.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 12:18pm
Wayne, thanks for the link, as that's an excellent, and informative read. I'm continually growing more and more frustrated with both Google, and Bing when trying to search subjects. It might just be me, but it seems like my results are not nearly as in depth as they used to be.

Every since we got the rifle, I've been staring at the mark, and the whole time I figured it was just some scratching marks. I guess the double stamping made it almost non legible. Either way I found it very interesting for my own unique curiosities with regards to the rifle's history, and what appears to be someone's "correction" job. The Stock has no FAT marking, but it could have been lightly sanded at one time....as the wra/ghd cartouche mark is not very indented anymore. This makes me think that this was CMP rifle at one time??? If so, I assume I can pay for a search on the rifle's paperwork?

eta: I've read some opinions that if the barrel has the FAT marking, that it denotes the armory changed the barrel. Any opinions on this?

On my sample size of one, I'm not sure that's accurate. I have a Winchester barrel that to my knowledge is correct for the Winchester receiver's serial, also has the rare L marked front sight that I believe is correct, shows heavy wear on outside ring that matches the barrel area around it. If my "corrector" theory is right about this rifle's previous owners, I don't think they went to the trouble of finding/buying a real L marked front sight. To me it looks like someone just wanted it to be all WRA regardless of which block of parts they were in.


RE: stock problem....thanks brother for the offer, and I'm still trying to figure out where to go from here. At this point, I'm not sure if I should keep throwing money at this rifle, or just keep staying patient going to every local gunshow, and watching CMP forum's EE for that one perfect carbine for our needs.   My dream is that one of these day's, I'm gonna be that guy that gets a $800-1000 7million WRA, super clean Rockola, or even a $2k M1A1. Those are my three unicorns right now:)


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by LMTmonoMan LMTmonoMan wrote:


eta: I've read some opinions that if the barrel has the FAT marking, that it denotes the armory changed the barrel. Any opinions on this?


I have read the same about the stamp on the barrel, I do not know for sure if that is a fact. I managed to get 10 carbines from the CMP when they were selling the Italian returns, of those 10 only 4 had the FAT stamp on the stock and 2 or 3 have the stamp on the barrel.

I believe that if you contact the CMP they can tell you if they sold your carbine, not sure they would charge for that, I read on another forum recently that someone just did that very same thing.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:22pm
An "L" marked front sight would not be appropriate for your serial range. I wonder how many people swapped out original front sights due to poor reporting in some books.
 
I have never seen a FAT stamp on the rear bevel, then again I have not seen many. The few Italian returns I have were all mixmasters, Maybe someone knows more but I think all the Italians were mixmasters. Italy got theirs 51-63 so probably rebuilt before receiving
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html
 
If not the Italians seemed to refinish them as they seem dark. Unlike the bavarians who marked every part and put them back together. I doubt the Italians did them one at a time, most probably in large batches, so no way to account for which part belonged to which receiver.
 
The two carbines I have with FAT marked barrels it would seem that they are both correct for the receiver they are on. Either very lucky, someone corrected, or stamp on barrel not due to replacement of barrel.
Could be different dates they stamped in different locations or if the carbine needed repair and they checked the barrel they stamped it.
 
With yours It appears maybe 2 different dates? on left side it looks like 73 but a 6 on bottom.


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:39pm
Dan, I don't think the stamp is on the rear bevel. It looks to me like a highly magnified image of the top of the barrel next to the receiver. My QHMC also has a similar FAT stamp along with a correct barrel for the receiver (see below). I go along with the theory that no barrel change occurred. Also, I've never seen a FAT stamp on any other metal surface on a carbine other than the barrel. I agree that they probably refinished the metal, either that or they took very good care of them while they had them. Maybe both.



-------------
JackP


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:46pm
Thanks Jack! thought I was looking at rear bevel and recoil plate.
If there is that drastic color change from barrel to receiver then maybe his was switched out.


-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:47pm
Good point. Earlier pictures show the receiver being the typical greenish color whereas the barrel is darker.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:48pm
Stick the barreled receiver with the slide and op spring attached in the stock.
See that the barrel is resting in the center of the stocks nose/barrel channel.
Now note if the slide has an even reveal on either side of the inner stock walls.

Next try a cardboard shim under the barrel in the channel/nose to mimic the hang, as if your HG was installed.
With your thumb hold the barrel in place so you have no side to side movement.
Now try your flour test.
If it rubs now, note the area inside.

Then I'd re-flour and install the complete barreled receiver... with proper hang... and lock the hand guard down.
Try it now.... if the hand guard, barrel band and band spring keep the barrel centered in the channel.. go ahead and give it another 'Rub' test.
Sometimes you'll find the barrel band spring is set to deep or not deep enough,
causing pull or push to one side when locked in to the barrel band.
These springs can be shimmed under or tapped in farther, depending on the issue.
Don't try to bend one.... they can snap off.

When you have a full assembly after all looks well, give it that last flour test.
No rub? Good to go.
Rubbing? Stock needs some inside sanding.

Good Luck,
Charlie-Painter777



-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

   I go along with the theory that no barrel change occurred.


Agree, The barrels also appear correct for the 3 carbines that I have with the stamp on them.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: James K
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 2:27pm
I assume you eyeballed the straightness of your "W" slide. I have wasted a lot of time in the past two months doing something senseless As I like a straight grip military stock especially the Swedish Mauser and I missed a good pot belly because spent too much time at a parts table, so have been carving out a 1894 Swede stock to fit the Underwood 2.8 receiver. I used the underwood slide out of the 968xxx Inland as the underwood slide is more rounded at the bottom than the nice "W" slide I have, due to limited wood thickness for a slide in a 1894 stock. Dumb, Huh? Almost done and the straight stock seems to come up better to be a pointer. W5USMC if you read this, I would be interested in the pot belly if available, PM me.
Years ago was overhauling a D6C final drive and did not like the looks of the new bull gear so returned to dealership. Parts man says, "Jim, If you want good parts, you have to order good parts." meaning they offered a free inspection of parts before purchasing, the bull gear was not heat treated why it looked funny. Guess this is why am so interested in all these carbine parts talk and there is always good and not so good parts.


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 8:16pm
LTMmonoMan, below are three examples of how various operating slides fit into various stocks. These carbines were fully assembled without the hand guards and the barrel band screws were tightened to secure the barrels. What does yours look like? Can you post a similar picture? As you can see, the slides are nearly centered with plenty of clearance on both sides.




-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

I have read the same about the stamp on the barrel, I do not know for sure if that is a fact. I managed to get 10 carbines from the CMP when they were selling the Italian returns, of those 10 only 4 had the FAT stamp on the stock and 2 or 3 have the stamp on the barrel.

I believe that if you contact the CMP they can tell you if they sold your carbine, not sure they would charge for that, I read on another forum recently that someone just did that very same thing.


Thanks again Wayne, and I can only imagine the awesomeness that is ten CMP carbines all from one round or release. Dare I ask how many carbines a man like you owns....even though they were all lost in a boating accident:) That must have given you a great perspective on the overall quality, and shooter-ability on the whole for the Italian CMP rifles.

I too read about someone recently requesting info from the CMP. I also inquired about it in a thread on the CMP forum when I was tempted to buy an early 2000s CMP H&R SG Garand at a local gunshow that the seller didn't have paperwork on hand for.

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


An "L" marked front sight would not be appropriate for your serial range. I wonder how many people swapped out original front sights due to poor reporting in some books.

Dan, as always thanks for your expertise...and I appreciate your corrections in this thread especially to keep the record straight for myself, and future readers. Now with regards to the L sight not being proper, according to Riesch's U.S. M1 CARBINES, WARTIME PRODUCTION on page 56 Table 2-3....


Extrapolating the date portion associated with when the L marked sights were used on WRA carbines: Mid 1943

Next I checked the Production dates by serial numbers using this website...
http://uscarbinecal30m1.com/Production.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://uscarbinecal30m1.com/Production.aspx

According to that data, no WRA rifles were produced in all of 1943.

Using that website/info again, I created a Component Listing for M1 Carbine - MFG: WRA Serial #: 1231633   found here:

http://uscarbinecal30m1.com/Parts/PartsList.aspx?action=home" rel="nofollow - http://uscarbinecal30m1.com/Parts/PartsList.aspx?action=home

For front site it lists..."WRA Front Sight     Type 1      Unmarked, L        1000000 - 7369669"

What is the correct serial number range for the WRA to have a L marked front sight?   Also if you don't mind, where did you source the info from so I can find a better source for info then the books.



I have never seen a FAT stamp on the rear bevel, then again I have not seen many. The few Italian returns I have were all mixmasters, Maybe someone knows more but I think all the Italians were mixmasters. Italy got theirs 51-63 so probably rebuilt before receiving
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html
If not the Italians seemed to refinish them as they seem dark. Unlike the bavarians who marked every part and put them back together. I doubt the Italians did them one at a time, most probably in large batches, so no way to account for which part belonged to which receiver.
The two carbines I have with FAT marked barrels it would seem that they are both correct for the receiver they are on. Either very lucky, someone corrected, or stamp on barrel not due to replacement of barrel.
Could be different dates they stamped in different locations or if the carbine needed repair and they checked the barrel they stamped it.
With yours It appears maybe 2 different dates? on left side it looks like 73 but a 6 on bottom.


You guys have just about everything in ya'lls carbine's collections! I should have posted a further away pic as Jack below is right, it's located at the very rear center area of my barrel where it meets the receiver face. I agree to me it looks like a 73 for sure, and your comment about it looking like two dates is inline with Wayne's double stamp observation. Perhaps it wasn't accidental, but a second visit to FAT for a rebuild.

Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

Dan, I don't think the stamp is on the rear bevel. It looks to me like a highly magnified image of the top of the barrel next to the receiver. My QHMC also has a similar FAT stamp along with a correct barrel for the receiver (see below). I go along with the theory that no barrel change occurred. Also, I've never seen a FAT stamp on any other metal surface on a carbine other than the barrel. I agree that they probably refinished the metal, either that or they took very good care of them while they had them. Maybe both.



Jack, as always your right on about where the marking is located. Fantastic picture by the way, and it's like one I took of a zoomed out look, and forgot to post. Yours is much better though, as mine is blurry.....


Over on the CMP forum I read one or two members state that the quality of the Italian returns was high, they were properly stored, and some look to never have been used.

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


Thanks Jack! thought I was looking at rear bevel and recoil plate.
If there is that drastic color change from barrel to receiver then maybe his was switched out.


Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

Good point. Earlier pictures show the receiver being the typical greenish color whereas the barrel is darker.


You two Detective's might be onto something ? The receiver is that patina green park'd finish, where the barrel underneath the stock/handguard is darker blackish color. However, where the barrel is exposed it has blended into looking more like the receiver, especially near the last inch or so.


Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Stick the barreled receiver with the slide and op spring attached in the stock.
See that the barrel is resting in the center of the stocks nose/barrel channel.
Now note if the slide has an even reveal on either side of the inner stock walls.

Next try a cardboard shim under the barrel in the channel/nose to mimic the hang, as if your HG was installed.
With your thumb hold the barrel in place so you have no side to side movement.
Now try your flour test.
If it rubs now, note the area inside.

Then I'd re-flour and install the complete barreled receiver... with proper hang... and lock the hand guard down.
Try it now.... if the hand guard, barrel band and band spring keep the barrel centered in the channel.. go ahead and give it another 'Rub' test.
Sometimes you'll find the barrel band spring is set to deep or not deep enough,
causing pull or push to one side when locked in to the barrel band.
These springs can be shimmed under or tapped in farther, depending on the issue.
Don't try to bend one.... they can snap off.

When you have a full assembly after all looks well, give it that last flour test.
No rub? Good to go.
Rubbing? Stock needs some inside sanding.

Good Luck,
Charlie-Painter777





Charlie, thanks so much for continually giving such in depth, and helpful replies. All of you gents have been so patient with me throughout this thread.

I think you hit on something very important that I've noticed since day 1 of assembling this rifle....and that is the fitment of the barrel band once the handguard is installed. When I go to engage the spring detent with the band's detent hole, I have to twist the entire barrel band assembly slightly clockwise by a few degrees in order to engage the spring detent with the barrel band hole.   Also important to note, is that when everything is assembled with the barrel band screw fully secured, my barrel doesn't line up evenly in the middle of the channel, rather it hugs the right side of the barrel channel just like the slide rubs the inside of the front right stock channel.

To me it seems clearly either a case of some form of misalignment with the fully assembled barreled receiver, or the cheaper problem....the stock itself is misaligned or warped.

The way I've had to twist downwards to engage the barrel band/spring detent is something that I almost made a quick video of to show you gents several times in the past, as it's hard to describe with words.

Oddly enough, the only critical area that must be shimmed in order to make the rifle run 100% as it is now with whatever problem it has, is directly ontop of the stock bridge. If I only shim in the front barrel channel region, it doesn't seem to clearance the rifles's slide enough. Just a piece of ammo box cardboard folded in half is all it takes at the stock bridge. Even more perplexing is that later stocks, and M2 stocks removed the bridge area all together that seems to be such a critical area in relieving my problem.

Few pics illustrating what you suggested...



Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

I assume you eyeballed the straightness of your "W" slide. I have wasted a lot of time in the past two months doing something senseless As I like a straight grip military stock especially the Swedish Mauser and I missed a good pot belly because spent too much time at a parts table, so have been carving out a 1894 Swede stock to fit the Underwood 2.8 receiver. I used the underwood slide out of the 968xxx Inland as the underwood slide is more rounded at the bottom than the nice "W" slide I have, due to limited wood thickness for a slide in a 1894 stock. Dumb, Huh? Almost done and the straight stock seems to come up better to be a pointer. W5USMC if you read this, I would be interested in the pot belly if available, PM me.
Years ago was overhauling a D6C final drive and did not like the looks of the new bull gear so returned to dealership. Parts man says, "Jim, If you want good parts, you have to order good parts." meaning they offered a free inspection of parts before purchasing, the bull gear was not heat treated why it looked funny. Guess this is why am so interested in all these carbine parts talk and there is always good and not so good parts.


Now that sounds like a really cool project, and if you don't mind....I'd love to see a pic or two of it when finished. Your one helluva handy man for sure, guess it's a requirement to be a Seabee though:) In regards to the slide being true, I did eyeball several times over, but also used a flat ruler along side it's arm, as well as on top of it's arm to make sure it was straight. I also get your underlying point as well, and it's well taken. At some point I imagine I've got to get either another stock, or another carbine to swap parts with in order to get this one running proper. Thanks for weighing in again James!


Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

LTMmonoMan, below are three examples of how various operating slides fit into various stocks. These carbines were fully assembled without the hand guards and the barrel band screws were tightened to secure the barrels. What does yours look like? Can you post a similar picture? As you can see, the slides are nearly centered with plenty of clearance on both sides.




Wow Jack, excellent set of pics that really gives me a perfect picture of what spec looks like. Really appreciative of the effort and time you must have taken to set up 3 examples and photograph them for me/pubic interest. Talk about going the extra mile!

Something is clearly off with mine....




eta...one more that better aligns with the ones you took:





Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 8:58pm
In the first image above your operating slide looks like it's not parallel to the stock. Is that the case or is it just the angle the picture was taken?

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:15pm
The last two are more indicative to how it really looks, for some reason that first one definitely looks worse than when I just now retried the setup. With my thumb perfectly holding the barrel down centered in the channel, then the slide sits pretty squarely and evenly, however if I just press the tip of the charging handle inward or against the receiver side, it then creates a slight angle of the slide like illustrated in that first pic, but just not as magnified as that pic makes it appear to be.

One thing I've thought about.....the way the spring tube interacts with the guide rod/recoil spring assembly....basically it often wants to slightly bow outward due to the tension of the separate parts, combined with the fact that the recoil spring tube isn't anchored to the receiver. I believe some torsional stress is being transferred to the slide to some degree whether this matters or not is unclear to me. It can sometimes be alleviated by rotating the spring tube until the "bow" faces more inward towards the receiver's side.


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:27pm
There is a rectangular hole in the spring tube that has to line up with a tab in the receiver channel. If you miss this it will torque the spring tube outward.

-------------
JackP


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

There is a rectangular hole in the spring tube that has to line up with a tab in the receiver channel. If you miss this it will torque the spring tube outward.


When I first noticed this slight issue, I immediately went to study receiver types as my spring tube has the rectangle cutout, however my WRA springtube receiver doesn't have the tab, a second hole, or a hole period that is drilled all the way through. The inside channel of the spring tube rails is flush   

Again, Dan will probably come drop a knowledge correction bomb on me after saying this, or you...,or one of the other gurus in this thread will, but based on all my reading, and my actual receiver.....I believe my receiver is a WRA spring tube Type 1-C. According to Riesch (Pg 16), this rare type of WRA receiver eliminated the two hole design thereby strengthening the receiver, and diminishing the number of cracked receivers.   Once I learned this I took a big sigh of relieve as I had read prior to learning which springtube model I had....that WRA spring tube receivers were prone to crack where the spring tube track/rail was welded on.

Mine is exactly like this BEAUTIFUL Bavarian early WRA's receiver....wonder if the owner is a member, as I'd love to see more pics, and see if he ever shoots it.... http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbineGBB_lus.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbineGBB_lus.html

Then here is mine...








Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jun 08 2018 at 9:36am

Most books were printed with information thought to be correct at time of press.

Sometimes new information comes to light that changes that information.

With Reisch I would never use his serial numbers as a guide, even beyond that there are few absolutes when it comes to carbines. The Carbine club has been researching and collecting data for 40 years. This is mostly driven by research of company documents and reports from the national archives.

With carbines there is no serial number start for a certain part nor an end serial that can be used as a absolute guide.

Many books use calculations to determine serial dates on the assumption that they were assigned X amount of serial numbers and that they produced for Y months. X/Y will give you an approximation. Did they account for scrapped serial numbers? What about Underwood and others that produced serial number blocks out of order?

The fault here is that production was slow in begining for the manufactures and numbers increased to the height of production in late 43. Then keep in mind production was quickly haulted for most in April 44

Parts were dumped into a bin and the worker would grab tha piece needed and assemble. as the bins got low a worker would dump in more parts. So as you can imagine that some parts could spend some time at the bottom of the bin. We refer to this as first in, last out. This is why we sometimes see parts of an earlier type used in small bands in later serial numbers.

So lets look at CCNL 336 Winchester first block update. We see that the only front sights contracted to be made for Winchester were from the Lyman Gun Sight Corp. Winchester sights have a shape that is unique. THis was addressed in CCNLs 32-2 and 230-9. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/unusual-markings-on-parts_topic1270.html" rel="nofollow - - - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/unusual-markings-on-parts_topic1270.html has a picture of the curvature of the Lyman profile as well as a possible L marked in the wrong location

Now this is where the clubs data sheets come into play. We take the data sheets on what we believe or know to be original as left the factory carbines to figure what serial ranges X or Y part type(s) or marking(s) was consitently used for what serial number range.

So the sights that Lyman marked with an L mostly appear in the 1.06 to 1.13 range with some earlier, some possibly later.

Now lets turn our attention to CCNL 337 article on Winchester's serial number usage. In a tremendous find Larry Ruth obtained copies of the Winchester finishing room log book which has the last serial numbers applied to the receiver and on what day.

1006196 was the last serial applied on Nov 12 1942

113xxxx serial numbers were applied from June 18-29

So does mid 43 sound correct, maybe a better simplified term should have been first half of 43? or better late 42 to mid 43. or maybe he should has said "till mid 43". None perfect, but you have to consider what you are trying to get across in a book with limited space.

It seems that everyone runs to the websight you mention. My challange to anyone is to see if any of the serial ranges for parts are different than that of Reisch's book. I believe the Author of that website basically wrote a program around Reisch's book with some information on other pages taken elsewhere.

Odd that you find that no winchesters were made in 43??????????

So on to your carbine. If the patina matched on exposed parts then it may have original barrel. Being that the rear of barrel was covered by the hand guard I would expect less patina. Pictures show things different than what the eye sees. So the stark color differance can be due to how the camera sees it.

Early on I asked members if they saw what I saw on your data sheet. The spring tube was out of place. They are usually seen up to the 1.21 serial range. One possibility is that the receiver got sidetracked durring production and finished later. Another possibility is that when deep drilling the bit wandered and broke through the side of the receiver. To salvage the receiver they simply machined the side off and made it a spring tube.

If you have not done so yet please submit the data sheet to datasheet@uscarbinecal30.com so Bob can log your serial as having a springtube. If he has anything interesting in the records to share he will contact you.

Did I miss anything?



-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 08 2018 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

It seems that everyone runs to the websight you mention. My challange to anyone is to see if any of the serial ranges for parts are different
than that of Reisch's book. I believ the Author of that website
basically wrote a program around Reisch's book with some information
on other pages taken elsewhere.


Agree, although I do use that component program on that website, as a starting point, the parts info sure does appear to mirror the info in Reisch's book.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jul 14 2018 at 9:46pm
Dan, thank you so much for such an extensive, and educational response.

Also my apologies to everyone for the delay, however I was waiting on today's gunshow which is Alabama's best especially for carbines imo. My plan was to get a new stock today, go home and perform the rub test, and see if it fails this last test that rules out the stock, and pretty much any other problem that can be fixed without buying and replacing a major component/s.

Here is the result of the new stock's rub test with the same WRA barreled action.

Almost exactly the same rub if not worse.....

(bottom one is the new FAT82 stock)


The reason I waited til today was because the gunshow dealer that sold me this rifle back in March told me he would be returning again to today's show, and that if I was still having problems come see him.

Now that I know I can't sell the rifle as a complete rifle, and after today can't sell most of the major parts like the receiver or barrel due to not knowing which one is faulty, and not wanting to pass my problem on to another person.....I could use some opinions on how I should handle this.

Knowing all the history on this rifle, the fact that the seller is a regular dealer/seller at gunshows, and lastly that he told me to come see him if I hadn't fixed it by this weekend's show.......what would you ask for or expect from the seller?


Personally I'm taking full responsibility for being ignorant, however now that I know I can't even in good conscience part the rifle out to get my money back, I'm wondering if I should indeed go see the seller tomorrow and see what we can work out.   Am I crazy?



Lastly, knock on wood....I think I got nice carbine this time for a good deal. Amazingly clean, 935xxx Inland/ with 10/43 inland barrel, that looks unmolested with all parts having the same matching finish. Haven't done a data sheet yet, but it's certainly a shooter, and a mixmaster.



Also I was very happy with the new stock purchase with the Birch potbelly FAT82.

Sadly all of that is overshadowed with this lingering problem, and final resolution that I've got a damn wall hanger!

Thanks for reading gents:)


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jul 14 2018 at 10:34pm
Now that you have a second carbine try swapping the slide and see if it hangs up or do rub test.



-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jul 14 2018 at 11:12pm
Will do brother, thanks for such a fast response.

I'll also submit the data sheet for the rifle, as I recently redid it with my better understanding and knowledge of carbines.


FWIW... Carbine report for the Hoover, Alabama Gunshow:

Carbines viewed:

20+ USGI mixmasters ranging from WRAs as high as $1200 for an all WRA/non correct model, to as low as $750 for a beat up looking Inland. Surprisingly almost all these carbines were priced fair to slightly below in some cases to the current market prices. 2 fully corrected beautiful USGIs, 1 really nice Bavarian for $1150, 1 Universal, and 1 commercial carbine that was a blinged out pistol looking abomination(factory model I believe too).


3 or 4 WRAs, 1 Rockola. No IPs, or unique receiver carbines that I saw.


Only 1 import marked carbine that I could see, and it was an extremely deep Blue sky import mark.


1 M1A1 that imho was fake due to the rivets, new looking/feeling leather, and how crisp the marking were on the buttplate. $3100 for an Inland in a repro

1 M1A1 stock sans rifle that imho was authentic, and in fantastic condition. $1600


Carbine parts: Fantastic for a gunshow. Two large tables with huge sections and tackle boxes full of carbine parts, most common, but some rare stuff. About 15 USGI WWII cartouche stocks from various makers, several high wood and I cut models as well. Prices ranged from $200-450 for those stocks. Over 30 various replacement stocks in mostly good condition ranging from $25 to $200. The one I bought came from this lot. There was nice CMP cartouche stock with the I cut but was north of $150 so I declined. Lots of mags to be had, NOS, used, 30rd mags from FN?, other 30rd mags, Korean mags, 5/10rd mags, etc.

2 very nice looking carbine cases, one of which I almost bought.

Carbine ammo:   Decent, but not abundant. I found several of the 120rd on stripper clips bandoleers. One was $60 the other $80. Several vendors had a box or several of the typical brown box USGI lake city ball ammo for as low as $25(which I might go back tom. and buy some of), and as high as $45 a box. Various commercial factory loads throughout the ammo vendors at the show as well.



Bubba'd/Fubar'd Carbine modifications spotted:


1 otherwise fantastic looking WRA with most parts being WRA....including the type 3 rear sight, however someone sadly cut half of the peep sight's circle in half to make it more into a " U notch " rear sight.


1 nice mixmaster USGI that had it's stock sporterized

ETA: 1 neat M1 carbine looking toy gun as best as I could tell.....too many people in front of the booth, and never got back around to viewing it. Looked like it was quite old, and a bit larger in scale than a real carbine.


pretty sure it's this one....


http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/dummy-carbine_topic1373.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/dummy-carbine_topic1373.html


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jul 15 2018 at 12:39am
Well Dan, I think we can rule out the slide now thanks to your great suggestion.

Repeated the slide rub/flour test, only this time like you said I replaced the WRA late model slide with the earlier Inland slide I just got.....same exact result, although this slide seemed to fit slightly better than the other even though it doesn't matter ultimately.





Has to be a crooked barreled action at this point, doesn't it?


Posted By: LMTmonoMan
Date Posted: Jul 15 2018 at 6:21pm
Well Gentlemen, Finality...Closure....The End. I hate how so many "I need help" threads on forums never find closure due to most likely the OP finding a solution or moving on and never updating the thread. Very frustrating when troubleshooting on the internet.    So while it's not the ending myself, or I'm sure you guys wanted to hear....it's nonetheless the conclusion, or resolution to our epic journey trying to fix one tragically flawed Winny.


So today I heard back from the gentlemen who sold me the rifle originally, and he offered to refund my money at the show. In return for his offer I felt the need to provide him with a data sheet of the rifle, 50/100yd targets, a complete list of parts replaced, and lastly a full run down of all the different steps we took while troubleshooting this rifle, and what the problem finally boiled down to. Luckily I always save everything that I get with a rifle nowadays, and was able to give him the original hang tag, and all assys he included with it   I felt I gave him back a better, cleaner, and more valuable rifle in terms of a few replacement parts that I upgraded over the ones it came with, plus replacing all the old springs. That said, I told him he was in no way obligated obviously to refund me or do anything for that matter, but instead he was a very honorable, and classy gentlemen, and not only refunded my money, but educated me some on garands. Ultimately I walked away feeling like I not only had satisfaction to my problematic rifle, but made a new friend in process. I really can't say enough about how this seller handled the situation, and about the quality of his character that he displayed to me.   

It was tragically satisfying seeing that rifle leave my ownership/stewardship of it's place in history. On one hand, I now have an Inland that I couldn't be more thrilled about for a great deal, but I lost a rifle that I felt had some aspects to it that made it special at least for myself.   I admit, I'm a sucker for a cartouche WWII stock, and it still had a visible cartouche. Equally special to me, was that the stock had such beautiful tiger striping, and reddish glow to it when the light hit it.   The spring tube is another reason that I'm quite sad about losing the rifle, along with the recent discovery that it prob. spent some of it's life with the Italians. I also appreciated the L front sight. Ultimately none of that matters for a guy like me who first and foremost loves to shoot firearms.   Having an unreliable gun, regardless of it's coolness, or history is completely unacceptable for myself.   Constant malfunctions definitely ruin one's shooting experience at the range imho.


He said that if and when he figures it out, he'll be sure to tell me, and thus I will tell you guys. Ultimately it has got to be a receiver/barrel issue imho.


The seller, and myself at the end discussed that without this rifle, there's no way that I would have come here to find you guys and be schooled by the best, spent an hour or two a day everyday since March reading about carbines, and ultimately developed what I know consider a very proficient knowledge base for both buying, and fixing carbines.   


All the above leads me to yesterday where after many months of wanting and looking for another carbine to buy, I finally was confident, educated enough, and found that "just right" goldilocks carbine.   I never would have gotten to yesterday's new carbine purchase without this forums members who have continually blessed me with their time, effort, energy, and amazingly deep knowledge base.   You guys have without question made a new school AR15 younger fellow in myself into an uber carbine fan.   I'll also try my best to remember the attitudes, and willingness of all of you to pass along the knowledge, and pay it forward approach to those younger or less knowledgeable, in the spirit of keeping alive a rifle that was a protector of America, and World democracy for so many years of service.   I now feel the responsibility of helping to ensure this rifle's unique, and very special place in history so that future generations will always know of the WAR BABY!

To all my friends now on here, THANKS!


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jul 15 2018 at 7:31pm
monoMan, I really hate to hear that the "lemon" Winchester is gone as I have really enjoyed taking part in and more importantly learning from this thread. I still really want to know why that damn gun does not function right. With that said I am glad to hear that the seller treated you so fairly and was willing to take the carbine back, he sounds like a good man. Now get that Inland to the range and tell us how it shoots.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jul 16 2018 at 4:08pm
I'm with Wayne,
Still have that want to fix it feeling.
When mentioned about having to twist the barrel band to catch the band spring, got me to wondering if the band itself may have been bent or distorted. So when locked down it was binding/pulling the barrel to the right...... causing the slide box to rub.

Damn, it's like having to sell off a car you love and seeing it drive away.
It will take a while to get back to normal... Cry

LMT, When ready, start a new post for your new 6 dig.

So long............

CH-P777


-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net