3 in Circle IP Receiver Marking ?
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Parts Markings
Forum Description: Questions and Answers
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3141
Printed Date: Apr 16 2024 at 6:21pm
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Topic: 3 in Circle IP Receiver Marking ?
Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Subject: 3 in Circle IP Receiver Marking ?
Date Posted: Oct 29 2017 at 4:34pm
Just picked this up and I'm not familiar with this marking and don't find anything in the CCNl's either,looks to be a 3 in a circle, any thought's ?? Thanks Chris  
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Replies:
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 29 2017 at 10:16pm
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The IP manufacturer update by Chris Albright CCNL 374 mentions the marking. Was I believe late first serial block and the second block.
------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Oct 31 2017 at 9:08pm
| I belive this previosuly seen on the bevel--no one has figured who did--first I seen like that--note the font of the 3 its foreign |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 01 2017 at 9:53am
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We are talking two different things here. There are marks observed on the rear right of IP receivers. First there were M2 then M4, Which sometimes looks like a I4 due to partial stamp. these two marks are only seen in the 1.7 range. Newsletter 374 shows that late in the 1.7 block (of IP production) and the 3.2 range a 3 shows up (edit to add "on the left side"). No mention of a circle. CCNL 372-19 has information about the 3 in circle that Welby mentions. If anyone has one of the 3 in circle on heel please let us know.  They do look similar. I would need a better picture to compare.  ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: NewScotlander
Date Posted: Nov 01 2017 at 11:08am
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"Newsletter 374 shows that late in the 1.7 block (of IP production) and the 3.2 range a 3 shows up. No mention of a circle." CLARIFICATION: Newsletter 374 states "....the number "3" came into use, marked on the LEFT side of the receiver." I have never seen a 3 inside-a-circle stamp on the right side. |
Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Date Posted: Nov 01 2017 at 1:33pm
| Well, I'm leaning toward a import marking of some sort, BUT if that's the case, wouldn't we see it on other manufactured receivers as well ? I missed NL 174 altogether [ thanks Dan ] Maybe someone else has another one. In any case here's another one for the archives. |
Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Nov 05 2017 at 6:05pm
| I have an early Rock-ola 1670xxx with the same stamped 3 in the same position as the OP's . This Rock-ola also has an import marked barrel . |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 10:40am
Think you can post a pic as well as the import mark. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Rcycles45 wrote:Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 12:26pm
   Here's a few pictures of mine, it's a 3/43 Underwood which should be correct and original to the receiver. And thanks to Scott for chiming in, hope he can tell us what import stamp is on his. Chris |
Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 6:06pm
| Is the second mark an import stamp? If so, why would they mark it twice? Thought they wanted to mark it as little and as small as possible? |
Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 7:13pm
The Import mark on mine is the same as what Chris has . Im sorry I have a hard time resizing the pics . I can send to someones email if they want to post for me .. 
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 7:50pm
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CAI ST .A. VT Century Arms Inc St Albans Vermont The 3 is what i am interested in. It is believed a foreign country put that mark on. The CAI might be a lead where they came in from. Scott, shoot the pics to me and i will size and post ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 8:26pm
| M1A1 one mark, multiple pictures. My bad. |
Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 8:35pm
Recycles45 pics  
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Posted By: Carkrazy66
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 9:02pm
My IP 3230214 appears to have a faint 3 in a circle on the right side, a 3 with no circle on the left side and also import marking on the underside of the 5-43 barrel.     
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 9:10pm
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Carkrazy, that looks like a upsidedown flaming bomb. Welcome to the forums and thank you for sharing! Rear heal of receiver looks like it may have had something removed, might just be the picture. *edit to add* that is a very late into the second serial block IP. We would love to see some more pictures! ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Carkrazy66
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 9:20pm
| Thanks! You may be right. Does look like it could be an upsidedown flaming bomb. |
Posted By: Carkrazy66
Date Posted: Nov 06 2017 at 10:02pm
      
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Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 6:57am
Thank you Ted for posting pics for me .. It would be interesting to find out the origin of this Number 3 . Its obvious its foreign , Probably some sort of unit designator of some sort . |
Posted By: Ghostman
Date Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 2:13pm
| This purely speculation but could it have been part of SGs in house system of grading IP recievers? Have any other numbers been encountered on IP recievers? |
Posted By: Car Wash Chris
Date Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 2:55pm
It's not only IP the one M1A1 shows belongs to Scott and it's a early spring tube rock-ola. So it seems that where this is heading is perhaps this importer got a batch from somewhere overseas , where they stamped the circle 3. |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 4:14pm
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The club has long known about the 3 in circle on the rear bevel of receiver. For some reason the 3 or 4 times I noticed it on the bevel behind serial number location it was on an IP. Now CWC reports a 3 in circle on the side of an IP. Further report by Rcycles show a RO with it on the side. Who import make 3 in circle location CarWashChris CAI ST A VT IP sideRcycles CAI ST .A. VT RO Side CarKrazy CAI ST A VT IP no 3 in cir bevel scrubbed? New2Brass CAI ST A VT NPM no 3 in cir bevel scrubbed Anyone see the consistent? granted it is a very small sample. Being that a carbine with a 3 in circle on rear bevel was reported in New Zealand I am leaning away from import mark. Maybe a agency mark. The CAI import mark has been reported in several locations and several variations of stamp and the location changed. right now what we are seeing with the CAI in a location on bottom of barrel, closer to the stock. Not the one closer to the front sight. this specific import stamp/location may narrow it down to a timeline that CAI brought them in. Note that I put periods in Rcycles import mark as I can make them out. I assume it is missing on most due to curve of barrel. I would ask anyone with a CAI import mark of the type described in the location described that they check the right rear of receiver for a mark. If no mark in either loacation report if rear bevel looks altered or scrubbed. The Bavarians initially scrubbed their markings when they were returning or selling. This may be the case with the 3 in circle on rear heel. I am not saying it is a Bavarian, rather some agency that marked in that location and removed the mark later. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Nov 08 2017 at 12:13pm
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Century Arms In, St. Albans, VT (hand engraved sloppy on left side of receiver below stock line) 1) Inland s/n 2978178 -no 3, no scrub mark, Bavaria name removed, has German v notch sight - imported in mid 1970's from Europe Century Arms Inc, St. Albans, VT (stamped on bottom of barrel just forward of stock) 1) National Postal Meter s/n 4256036 -no 3, no scrub mark, no Bavaria, trigger guard marked WB-S-STG - Stuttgart City Police - imported in mid 1970's from Europe 2) Saginaw SG s/n 3347270 -no 3, bevel below s/n scrubbed, Bavaria Game Warden, WB-LP on bottom of trigger guard - Wurttember-Baden Landespolizei - imported in mid 1970's from Europe - note: The WB Landpolizei sometimes stamped a stag horn or other markings on the bevel below the serial number. If the carbine also has Bavaria markings it's not uncommon to see this area has been "scrubbed" to remove the markings C.A.I. Georgia, VT engraved with dot matri engraver on right side of barrel midway between front sight & bbl band) 1) Inland s/n 744979 - no 3, no scrubbing, Stuttgart Railway Police - imported from Guatemala about 2007 To note again, it's not uncommon to find the top of the recoil plate and/or the bevel below the serial number has been machined. Agencies in Wurttemberg-Baden and Hessen sometimes put markings that identified their police agency there. The markings have been removed by subsequent owners to include other police agencies and/or civilian owners. Jim |
Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Nov 08 2017 at 2:43pm
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Finished looking thru all my pics. Found only one with the circled 3. Also have a pic of the IP sent by Mike OHagan in NZ. Example #1 This carbine is in Canada. Correctly, it has no import mark. There were/are no Bavarian markings. The carbine has the markings of the Wurttemberg-Baden Landespolizei in the prior state of Wurttemberg. The carbines Century Arms imported into the USA in the 1970's were imported from Canada. Where they had been imported from Europe. More on Century Arms imports will follow in a separate post. Since we're discussing markings on carbines used by the German police an explanation is in order to help understand some of the things we've seen on their carbines. At the end of WWII the German states of Wurttemberg and Baden were combined then divided in three top to bottom. The upper third was designated Wurttember-Baden and the only one of the three in the American Occupation Zone. The other two were occupied by France. The U.S. Military Government for Wurttember-Baden ordered their carbines to be marked on the bottom of the trigger guard with the initials WB followed by an S for Stadt (city) police or an LP for LandesPolizei (state police). If a city police the S was followed by an abbreviation for the city. For the Landespolizei final markings on the trigger guard were a 4 digit inventory number. Examples: WB-LP-1234, WB-S-STG for the police in Stuttgart. The Landespolizei was designated by the Americans as law enforcement for the rural areas outside the cities. Thus the American words Rural Police. These marking requirements were the minimum and mandatory. With each of the 5 sectors within the American Occupation Zone having their own HQ that decided on the markings for their particular area. Example would be the Bavaria Police markings in English on the top of the left side of the receiver were specific to Bavaria. As the police agencies received their carbines some of them opted to add additional markings. These varied with locations and time periods. The Landespolizei within what had been the state of Baden often placed the Baden crest/shield on the left side of the receiver to the left of the U.S. Carbine markings along with a number designating which police post. The Landespolizei in the prior state of Wurttemberg sometimes placed a stag horn, the long standing trademark for the House of Wurttemberg somewhere on the carbine. Some chose the bottom of the handgrip, others chose the top of the recoil plate, some chose the bevel below the serial number. The top of the recoil plate or bevel below the serial number were used by some of the agencies in Wurttemberg-Baden for other markings. Sometimes the letters WB-LP, LP-W or a three or four digit inventory number different than the one on the trigger guard. From 1946-1949 who owned the carbines used by the police was the U.S. Office of Military Government. If they found a surplus in one area they sometimes moved quantities to areas having a need for more. Not just within Wurttemberg-Baden but included to/from Bavaria and to/from Hessen. Sometimes the old markings were removed and replaced with the more current ones. Between 1949 and 1955 each of the land/states within the American Occupation Zone paid for the weapons they'd been loaned. Thereafter they were theirs to do with as they chose. Bavaria started selling their carbines before they had paid for them with the first couple sales being to the police in Wurttemberg-Baden. By 1952 the Germans had merged all three occupied areas of the former states of Baden and Wurttemberg into what we now know as Baden-Wurttemberg. The point being some of the carbines moved around between agencies throughout Bavaria, Wurttemberg-Baden and Hessen accruing or losing markings from the prior agencies. I have many photos of the end results. Putting the circled 3 into this mix ... it's not unusual to find a marking that only appears on a limited number of carbines. The common denominator would be at one point those carbines were at the same police post that decided to use the marking for whatever reason. Think of Wurttemberg-Baden as the state of New Hampshire. They have their state police (Landespolizei), county sheriff's (Landkreis polizei) and city/town police (Stadt polizei). Each having different their various police stations through their jurisdiction (police posts). Then add to this the circled 3 could have been done before or after the Germans had the carbines. My guess, and it's just a guess, is this was one of those German police posts. Okay, now for the NPM in Canada used by the Wurttemberg-Baden Landespolizei in the former state of Wurttemberg...  http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/NPMcircled3.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/NPMcircled3.jpg Example #2 is the carbine referred too in the Carbine Club newsletter mentioned above. It's in New Zealand. No imports marks there. It was shared with me about 9 years ago. I don't recall the German agency markings though I do believe it had them.  http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/IPcircled3.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/IPcircled3.jpg Enough for the moment. Next post will be on Century Arms imports at the time. Jim |
Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Nov 08 2017 at 4:13pm
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A little info about Imports to help understand things are often not straight forward.... using Century Arms and their 1970's imports with German police markings as an example. I have documents and corroberating info showing each of the German Landes/States bought the firearms provided to their police by the U.S. Office of Military Government during the occupation. The exception being Berlin. They returned theirs to the Berlin Brigade. When these carbines were sold they were sold by the particular land/state, not the West German Federal government. Additional documents up until 1955 show the breakdown of sales by Bavaria with dates and who they were sold too. Several sales were made to the police in Wurttemberg-Baden. These were out numbered by the number of sales and quantities sold to the Landespolizei in Lower Saxony 1950-1955. Lower Saxony was in the British Occupation Zone. These sales did not require an exporter. Bavaria sold over 4000 carbines in two transactions to the Austrian Gendarmerie in 1955/56. German law required the sale to be handled by a licensed exporter. Since no German exporters were available in 1955 Bavaria used Sidem International, a Belgian based firm. Sidem Intl brokered the deals but may have never had actual possession of the carbines. Not long after these sales West Germany licensed West German companies as exporters and required all exports must go through one of their West German exporters. A practice still in use today in Germany. Most other countries require the exports/imports must be handled by a firm licensed and with a physical presence in their country. Though they may be a foreign owned corporation. Enter Century Arms Intl. They were licensed and had a physical presence in the USA with a similar setup in Canada. And elsewhere. About 10 years ago I was allowed to communicate with one of their long time employees regarding the import of the carbines with German police markings having the scrawled import marks below the stock line. Some details were left out for obvious reasons but I was grateful for whatever I could get. Century Arms bought them from a European based exporter. They did not identify who and where the exporter obtained them. The assumption would be it was a West German exporter but that assumption could very well be wrong. Joe Bruch, a Carbine Club member, was a U.S. Air Force Security Police Officer stationed in West Germany in the 1970's. He visited exporters in West Germany and two large exporters in Switzerland who had U.S. carbines with Bavaria Police markings they were distributing. He saw it first hand. Such is the business of gun brokers. I've communicated with Joe regarding his eperiences for a number of years. It would also be easy to assume the carbines imported by Century Arms were sold to the European Broker by Bavaria. But keep in mind the sales by Bavaria to Baden-Wurttemberg and Lower Saxony. The latter of which sold their carbines in the 1970's according to their police museum curator. Back to Century Arms. The shipment of carbines they bought from the European exporter were all imported into Canada. Some were sold to distributors in Canada. Some were imported into the USA from Canada. The employee interviewed indicated Century Arms maintained a number of warehouses in VT and elsewhere for processing their imports. Common practice. In this case the warehouse was at an airfield in VT. He was there when the first ones arrived from Canada. He couldn't recall the exact date but thought it was about the mid 1970's. I later found their advertisement for law enforcement sales in the November 1974 issue of Law and Order Magazine.  http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/CAIimports1974.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forumpics/CAIimports1974.jpg He recalled clearly the carbine imports had to be sold to law enforcement only per the 1968 Gun Control Act. This act also gave birth to ATF who was still trying to gear up with all the policies they needed to comply with all the provisions of the act that created them. The act also required all imports to be marked with the name of the manufacturer and their location. What it didn't specify was exactly what those markings must consist of and where they had to be placed. ATF hadn't made this clear by the time Century Arms imported these carbines. They had no importer stamp as they didn't know what it should do where. So the decision was made to start with hand engraving the full name of the company and city/state. On the receiver below the stock line.  http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/mo7import.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/mo7import.jpg The quantity imported was not information that was shared. But it was significant enough it took Century Arms a number of months to process those imported into the USA. During the process Century Arms received their first importer stamps. They switched to using the stamps, placing the mark on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the stock as ATF had indicated the markings had to be visible. But not how much of them. Carbines with barrel bands having a bayonet lug covered up part of the import mark on some carbines but the intent was to place the marking between the front of the stock and rear of the bayonet lug.  http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/mo6import.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/mo6import.jpg Processing the carbines was completed using those first import stamps. Later stamps they were allowed to abbreviate the name using their initials. The carbines were obviously sold direct to law enforcement by Century Arms. At some point Century Arms sold an unknown quantity to Interarms who also advertised them for law enforcement sales. Officers in Detroit who purchased some of these thought they were imported by Interarms until requested to check the import mark. They found the Century Arms import mark. What about New Zealand? New Zealand had/has their own NZ based importers who buy wholesale. According to one of these NZ importers one of the distributors they have bought from over the years was Century Arms. Though he could not confirm this was the case with those with German Police markings. Keep in mind the two companies in Switzerland. While these were the first U.S. carbines with German Police markings that can be definietly proven as to who imported them, when and how they were sold these were not the first U.S. carbines with German police markings imported into the USA. In the late summer of 1967 Carbine Club member Bill Ricca visited Interarmco at their warehouse in Arlington, VA and met with the manager, who was also a personal friend. From Bill in 2007, "Actually I know very little about West German carbines, except for the ones I was told about by" [the manager and personal friend]. "When I was there, there were very few left. I got one of probably the last few hundred." Bill's M1 carbine from Interarmco did not have a German agency name anywhere on the rifle, was equipped with a German manufactured stock and handguard, and included a web sling with the words "Zieh Hier" (German for "Pull Here") on its snap. Bill's carbine had no import mark, these marks were not required until the Gun Control Act of 1968. As with the carbines imported by Century Arms in the 1970's it's not known exactly where in West Germany Interarmco's exporter in Europe acquired them from. Though Bill didn't see the German Police markings many of the carbines had their markings removed by Bavaria. Some more professionlly than others. Much of what I've typed here is rehashing some of what can be found on the Export/Import page at BavarianM1Carbines.com ( http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/imports.html ). I felt it was relevant to the discussion on the circled 3 markings found on some of the carbines as it helps put the import marks and importers into perspective. The actual markings used varied over time with Century Arms as well as others. Sometimes this helps us determine when they were imported and from where. Have a look at the importer marking list on the Export/Import page of USCarbineCal30.com( http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html ). So when the question comes up as to where a particular marking came from the answers are often not the short story indicated at the top of this topic. However, I'll add that it's been my experience with U.S. import markings that they have been limited to what is legally required: the importer's name and location. I have yet to see importers add other markings such as the one discussed in this thread. This doesn't mean no one has ever done it. It's just not a common practice. For several reasons. If someone has seen otherwise with documentation to verify it I'd be much appreciative if you contacted me. Jim |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 02 2018 at 5:02pm
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Another 3 in Circle http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/topic3692_post24249.html#24249" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/topic3692_post24249.html#24249 ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Bigheavy31
Date Posted: Sep 20 2020 at 10:57pm
 Hello- I recently purchased a S’G’ carbine that has several typical european characteristics to include a stamped “3” on the receiver bevel. The right side of the bevel appears to have been scrubbed/ ground off at the edge of the 3. The carbine is a CAI import which seems to be similar to others mentioned. It has several early features, and I wanted to take it to the range prior to mentioning it in the forum. It shot well overall which is good as I bought it to shoot/ enjoy.
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Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Sep 21 2020 at 12:45am
Are there any lengthwise marks along the top of the receiver to the left of the bolt? Any evidence of markings having been removed from the bottom of the trigger guard? Thanks for sharing the great pic. Jim |
Posted By: Bigheavy31
Date Posted: Sep 21 2020 at 9:02am
  I looked for markings in both of these areas- but didn’t see anything in either area.
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Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Sep 21 2020 at 11:51pm
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Saw this one on GB auction #879513085 RO today. Appears to be a circle 3, though the top part isn't very clear, so maybe it's not. Interesting thing is it's marked with the IOINC / RTI import mark so I'm assuming from Ethiopia? Plum toned trigger housing.  
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Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Sep 22 2020 at 12:18am
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I've seen a sufficient number of these now that I don't think they were provided to the police forces of Germany or Austria during the American Occupation. Or anytime after in Austria. Those with the Century Arms import marking, IF they were among those imported by Century Arms in the mid 1970's that included many carbines used by the German police, we don't know who Century Arms bought those from. A longtime member of the Carbine Club was an MP stationed in Germany in the 1970's. He visited a number of firearm import/export companies in several European countries during his time there. Two of the companies were in Switzerland, where he saw hundreds of U.S. carbines obtained from various countries being readied for export from Switzerland. These included carbines used by the German police. Century Arms may have bought the carbines they imported in the mid 1970's from one of these companies or another like them. Jim |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Sep 27 2020 at 8:18pm
@ GotSnlB28, I just seen this one on GB and was searching around because I thought it was a Circled S. I also couldn't make out the Import mark. Seller has 3 carbines listed IMO all are priced pretty high. This Rock and 2 Springtube Wra's, a 35,897 and a 34,492. The Rock Ola and WRA 35,897 both show that Import mark. No pictures of Import marks on WRA 34,492..... But I assume it has the same Import stamp. All in the same condition..... Rough. Are these the RTI Carbines ?? When looking at the Rock Ola, Do you think the Drilled Hole in front of the Slide stop is a 'New Stop Pin Hold' ? Thx Ch-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: 03manV
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 12:07am
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I would say they are carbines sold by RTI. What looks like a stop pin "hold", is a puch mark to straighten/reform the front edge of the cut out so it will hold the pin in the slide and thus hold the slide back. At least that is what it looks like to me. ;) ------------- Don |
Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 1:53pm
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I'm sure they are RTI given the import mark. Have been seeing a few of those being flipped on GB given the rising prices. It looks like punch marks at either end of the slide stop recess to me as well. I was wondering if that mod was made in factory or later? It is an earlier receiver. I have not seen one like this before. |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 2:53pm
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noticed how the metal is raised around the punch mark with no finish left. I am thinking this was an attempt to rise the slide tab and to keep a slide from dismounting while firing? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 6:08pm
| Dan, that's an interesting thought but the punch may not raise the metal enough to make a difference? It may have been an unsuccessful attempt to fix a slide problem too. Another thought I had, the front punch mark appears deep considering case hardening? |
Posted By: 03manV
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 10:29pm
I agree that the punch would not make much difference in the slide "dismounting", and actually it would move the tab the wrong way, IMO. But a carbine receiver is not case hardened, which is a surface hardening only. I believe they were differentially heat treated and the "middle" area may be softer than the front and rear, given the wear and upset frequently seen in the slide catch slot- it is not particularly hard in that area. ------------- Don |
Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Sep 28 2020 at 10:53pm
| Yup, case hardening wasn't the right term to use. Metallurgist I'm not :) Just seemed like a deep punch mark for a hardened receiver. But as you say, receivers can wear in this area so it's probably not that hard. |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Nov 02 2020 at 12:31pm
Here is another one from RTI's website. ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: 35 Whelen
Date Posted: Apr 14 2021 at 10:11am
  I didn't see any other unusual markings, scuffs or scrubs on the reveiver.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Apr 14 2021 at 11:20am
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You had asked about the finish. Parkerizing is a phosphate finish. There were many companies with different formulas or process. Phosphate finishes had a wide variety of shades that range from a silvery gray to black. We see some Bavarian returns that have been blued, others phosphate finished. The Italian returns were a black phosphate. I do not know if all were. With the mysterious 3 in circle marking we see different finishes. If you look at the Inland above your picture it appears to be an original black oxide finish, which is something Inland did early on before switching to a phosphate coating. The we see some gray phosphate carbines with the 3 in circle. It could be that whatever agency had them did the refinishing or it could have been an importer or even a subsequent owner. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 08 2022 at 5:08pm
Another Circled 3, on GB now from RTI.
------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: stevehowa
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 12:28am
3 in circle IP Receiver Marking. Also have a T stamped next to US 30 Carbine that seems out of place. 
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 7:17am
Can you post a pic? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: stevehowa
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 7:40am
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 14 2022 at 6:11pm
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Thank you Steve, That is a new one for me! ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: stevehowa
Date Posted: May 14 2022 at 8:41pm
| Thank you for having a look. I have been searching for a similar mark without success. |
Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Nov 09 2022 at 4:23pm
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I recently purchased an Inland (serial #6710250) with a circled “3” behind the serial. There’s also an inverted/sideways “N” on the receiver, just above the chamber. I don’t know if it’s significant or not, but there’s also a sideways “2” on the right side of the receiver. “CAI ST A VT” import stamp on bottom of barrel, approximately 1” forward of the bayonet lug.    ------------- Eric NRA Life Member NRA-Certified RSO Project Appleseed “Rifleman” When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!" |
Posted By: Bigheavy31
Date Posted: Nov 10 2022 at 8:19pm
Took another look at my “3” marked S’G’- mine also has an odd mark near the barrel Mount ring. Might be a partial T. |
Posted By: gglithox
Date Posted: Oct 19 2023 at 11:40am
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I'm resurrecting this old post in hopes of any new information about the circled 3 mystery. I just picked up an 8/43 Saginaw S'G' #1830210 that has the circled 3 on the rear of the receiver. There is also an upside down P mark on the front of the receiver next to CAL. and imported by CAI ST. ALB VT. It still has a lot of early feature parts, T1 rear sight marked B-S'G', T1A barrel band marked U and UN on swivel (NPM), Grand Rapids front sight marked on blade with a 4, operating slide SG, flat bolt NPM N12 and Winchester trigger housing with Inland internals. There are no Bavarian markings or scrubbed areas. The finish is darker than normal, almost black if that is a clue. It came in an Inland T1 I stock with IO, flaming bomb and 9 stamped in the sling well.        |
Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Oct 19 2023 at 7:32pm
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The more I see of these, the more I think they might be exporter's marks denoting either the exporter or an inventory mark denoting source. Does anyone know if these marks show up on other types of surplus firearms? ------------- OGCA Life member NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Oct 20 2023 at 2:49am
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The majority of importers and their employees are understandably reluctant to say anything to anyone about what they've imported, from where, when, and the processing of the imports before they are sold. The few exceptions have been the smaller importers. I've been lucky to have a few contact me after seeing this website and our importer page. Including a couple employees and ex-employees of Century Arms. Century Arms has been importing guns longer than any other importer. They are a fairly large company that has had multiple locations throughout the USA. In addition to other countries, such as Canada. They started importing U.S. carbines in the early 1960's. The import mark requirement was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act that also gave birth to ATF. A CAI employee in VT who worked on carbines in their St. Albans warehouse during that time indicated something I've heard consistently from others who worked for importers over the years. Along with a couple import company owners. One question I've asked most if not all of the dozen or so has been what did they do when they received them here in the USA and did they place any markings on them. After unpacking them the only inspection they did was superficial. The quantities they dealt with and the time they had to do things limited inspections to overall condition, parts damaged or missing, and appearance with the goals being move them and sell them. None did what I experienced at CMP, where the primary focus was safety and function. None test fired them. I know of only one who reparkerized some that were in really bad condition. One of the smaller importers with a small operation. All indicated no markings placed anywhere on the carbines other than the import mark when it became a requirement in 1968. ATF hadn't given them any specific instructions on which of their locations to indicate if they had more than one, font size, the use of abbreviations, etc until the mid 1970's. So what we see from the 70's is a mix of locations and mix of abbreviations and all spelled out. But a name, city, and state were the basic requirement and appeared together somewhere on the receiver or barrel. My guess is these were probably done by an armorer with a foreign military unit or police agency. Jim |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 20 2023 at 10:59am
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A pattern is showing up where if there it a 3 In circle on the bevel or right side that it may have a random letter on the left side of the front ring. We have seen some of these markings in Canada and Australia, both of which do not require import markings as it is a USA requirement. Those reported have largely been imported by Century Arms Inc in St. Albans, VT. They had several markings over time but I believe all reported have been marked "CAI ST ALB VT" What we do know is Century imported carbines from West Germany in the mid 1970s  Recently we have seen more of these 3 in circle making showing up on thous sold by Royal Tiger Imports (RTI) and they were imported from Ethiopia by Inter Ordnance Melbourne, FL  We left carbines in occupied Germany and Austria right after the war. Through the Military Assistance Programs (MAP) programs we sent Germany a known 34,192 carbines between 1951-1963. Austria received 12,620 in that same time period There were carbines that shifted between agencies in Germany and Austria and they may have acquired carbines from other places in Europe or beyond. Jim would know better. Carbines that were "lent or Leased" to countries were supposed to be returned to the US Army. These usually were given to the CMP. As they were returned to the army there would be no import markings. I do not think any of the 3 in circle marked carbines have been sold through the CMP. It a country bought the carbines it became thee property of said country. They were allowed to dispose of as they wished. These are the carbines that get bought by importers. This is not to say that some lent/leased carbines were not sold to importers. From 1965 to 1970 the MAP sent 16,417 carbines to Ethiopia. This is not to say that Ethiopia did not obtain carbines from other sources. Not all the RTI carbines had the 3 in circle marking, Is there a connection between Germany , Austria and Ethiopia? Probably nothing that would tie these together. It was probably due to arms dealers over the years. What might help is if there are other military arms that have the same markings. For more on the import marking and those we know were imported from http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html For more on the Lend Lease and Military Assistance Program, which is linked in the Import/export page above http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/carbinesnara.html If anyone is looking for a small project for the club, Go through this thread and linked posts and make listing of the carbines with the 3 and front ring marks, if known. As well as the import marking or country reported. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Dec 27 2023 at 10:10pm
Has anyone noticed we have 2 different style 3's being used. Most common being reported having the curved bottom leg. Least common, like these 2 above having all the legs straight inward. I just had a member report a carbine that I noticed the Circle on with what appears to be a block style 3. The up right/vertical part of the 3 is missing. I believe it's a example like above with a chipped or damaged 3 stamp. I'll Report back when he gets me the pics I asked for and get your thoughts. It's a RTI import from Ethiopia. Charlie-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 27 2023 at 10:57pm
I noticed  Don't forget to get a pic of the left side of the front ring ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Dec 28 2023 at 3:10pm
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Maybe easier to post the link here. If needed you can pull the pictures and post them here for the record. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=79399&p=534937#post534937" rel="nofollow - https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=79399&p=534937#post534937 Charlie-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |