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Church Magazine Update

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Newsworthy Items
Forum Description: Newsletters and Featured Carbines
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3111
Printed Date: Oct 01 2022 at 1:38pm
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Topic: Church Magazine Update
Posted By: Newsman4
Subject: Church Magazine Update
Date Posted: Oct 04 2017 at 7:58pm

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/CCNLs/churchmagazinesupdate.pdf" rel="nofollow - Download PDF
November 2017-F
Church Magazine Update

Carbine Club Newsletter issue #265 (Nov 1998) contains an excellent five page article by Larry Horner on magazine markings. This article included information on what has come to be known as the "Church" magazine. As a lead in to what follows here's Larry's short article on this magazine.

"CHURCH" MAGAZINES



"The magazines with the line drawing of what appears to be a church with a steeple were made in West Germany. These welded angle cut magazines are very similar to US Military issue but have a parkerized finish. I bought several boxes from a dealer at the Houston gun show in late 1993. The unmarked cardboard (not corrugated) boxes contained ten unwrapped magazines each. The boxes were sealed with cellophane tape that had turned yellow and was coming loose. Inside each box was a slip of paper that displayed a lot number, inspector's initials, and WEST GERMANY. I have misplaced the tags, but I am confident the magazines are in fact of West German origin."

During my research on the carbines used by the police and self defense forces of West Germany and Austria I came into possession of several of these magazines. I had received information from several sources who indicated they had also purchased these magazines from a company in Texas in the 1990's. They confirmed Larry's information on the boxes having no markings but contained a paper slip indicating the magazines were made in West Germany.

I received information from separate sources the church logo has also been seen on cartridge links of an ammo belt. The belts were used by the German Bundeswehr with the West German M3 machinegun manufactured post WWII by Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH in Düsseldorf. It is believed the company who made belt links with the church logo was a subcontractor for Rheinmetall.




In July 2017 a seller on the German equivalent of Gunbroker, EGun.de, listed a box of new old stock cartridge links for caliber 7.62 x 51mm. The listing did not show if the links had markings but on the outside of the box was the same church logo

NATO Stock Number 1305-12-124-5709
Cartridge Belt, DM1, for 250 cartridges 7.62 x 51
1 Piece
WM1 6b/02/11180/0001/5
Lot Number 10
Hein. Hülter Jr., Iserlohn
C-K9-III-x-65




The number 12 within the NATO stock number identifies the item was for use by Germany. The sequence with WM is believed to be the contract number. The date of manufacturer is believed to be 1965. The current NATO stock system indicates this part has been replaced. The supply sources still on record are various German military logistics supply agencies.

Hein. Hülter Jr. in Iserlohn was a metal factory founded in 1890 (magazine advertisement sold on EBay Germany from unknown German magazine in 1929). Iserlohn is located approximately 90 miles east of Düsseldorf in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.




The current German Company Registry shows no records for the company. Heinrich Hülter, Jr. in Iserlohn has been the assignee of a number of patents over the years with the last application filed in 1969 and published in 1972. The patents include a number of innovations for belt feeding mechanisms.

The church logo used by Heinrich Hülter, Jr. could not be located in the European trademark database. The church depicted is similar in appearance to several churches in the vicinity of Düsseldorf but may have been a church in Iserlohn before it burned down and has since been reconstructed using a different architectural design.




The magazines observed to date have all been 30 round magazines for the .30 caliber carbines.







Copyright: The Carbine Collector’s Club©

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Replies:
Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Apr 20 2022 at 11:36pm
I’m trying to get my hands on one of these 


Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Apr 21 2022 at 11:43am
There’s a member here that’s got 2 of them. I’ve put myself on the list to get them if he ever sells. Wish I would have gotten to him sooner. He’s already sold a couple to another member


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: Apr 23 2022 at 12:41am
What did he sell the ones he had for? What is a fare $ for a really good example? JB


Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: Apr 23 2022 at 9:48pm
I acquired one of these "church" mags about 5 years ago. Pretty cool stamp and well constructed. I rarely see these for sale.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 01 2022 at 9:56pm
A couple of church mags jus went for 300 on gunbroker. To rich for me. I was all in at 200 and felt stupid. Donnie, wanna trade for 1 of them LOL


Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: May 01 2022 at 9:58pm
I bid 300 on them and was out at that. 


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 01 2022 at 11:12pm
Interesting that those two Church mags that just sold on GB were in "jay scott" boxes. 

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: May 01 2022 at 11:20pm
Yep I noticed that too. They went for $301, you just missed em 


Posted By: gglithox
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:27am
I think the stripper clips came in the Jay Scott boxes.


Posted By: Jond41403
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:44am
Looks to me as long as the boxes are compared to the stripper clip, seems one magazine and one stripper clip came in each box. Maybe just the magazine itself in the box and the clips are extra. I find it interesting that the j Scott calls it a 30 shot clip instead of a 30 round magazine haha. Seller claims in his ad that these were packaged and sold under different names. I have no idea if this is true but that's what his ad mentions


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:00am
Originally posted by gglithox gglithox wrote:

I think the stripper clips came in the Jay Scott boxes.

No, 30 round magazines came in those boxes. "Jay Scott Clips" which were actually magazines, had several different markings such as "Made in USA" "Jay Scott" and "M2".  Think they also used some markings that mimicked USGI markings.


-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:34am
The Jay Scott marketed magazines were made by Tony Scherer which is known for making gun grips.
There were 9 different markings that I know of.
Some locations had restrictions on magazine capacity and they cut down and marketed many of these magazines. They were in a smaller box marked Jay Scott

The 30 round box held one magazine and no room for a stripper clip.


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Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

There were 9 different markings that I know of.

Dan, has it ever been known for a Church mag to come in a "jay scott" box?


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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:35pm
nope, and the ones on auction are not consistent with the Jay Scott mags.
Someone had the boxes and put the church mags with them


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Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:03pm
    It is plausible that Jay Scott acquired M1 Carbine 30rd magazines from many sources / manufactures, which could have been large amounts of Church mags as well when they were initially imported, and distributed in their boxes.       
    It would have been cheaper to acquire them than manufacture them. I remember buying GI 30rd mags from SARCO for 3 dollars each in 1979, Remember back in the day (60's - 80's), hardly anyone wanted these mags.             
    When the initial importation of LARGE amounts of M1 Carbines rolled in, in the very late 80's from South Korea from multiple importers ($120.00 wholesale in Shotgun News), 30rd Mags were stripped nationwide very soon thereafter.     
    Unfortunately, across the USGI spectrum of classic firearms its just getting wild yet predictable..., and anything equipment, gear, parts associated with them is very swiftly disappearing. Cheers JB          


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:23pm
Lets back up a bit.

In CCNL 265 Nov 1998 Larry Horner interviewed Mr. Scherer

In 1963 the NRA was releasing thousands of carbines without magazines. You could buy a USGI 15 round magazine for 10 cents. The 30 round magazines were selling for $3. Scherer saw an opportunity here and had 30 round magazines made. He was selling them 65 cents each if you were buying 1000.

The Tony Scherer magazines had 8 known codes as well as an unmarked. The codes copying USGI magazines were early production and then he was producing unmarked magazines until some import magazines showed up unmarked. This is when he switched to the Made in USA marking
Somewhere in the mix Jay Scott contracted Scherer to make magazines with his name on them.

All of the Scherer magazines have the square cut on the back. If you look at the pictures in this article you will see the church magazines had a angled cut. The Church mags are noticeably heavier than the Scherer magazines

 So I would think The Jay Scott magazines in the box were marked Jay Scott

I think the church mags showed up in the early 90s.

so do I think its plausible that Jay Scott bought surplus mags and sold them in his boxes? I find this unlikely as he had his name put on the ones he was selling rather than just reselling the other magazines.




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Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:50pm
Plausible / Unlikely, Both have potential. During the 50's 60's, early 70's a metric sh@t ton of surplus across Europe and the world was being imported regularly by anyone with capital.... New and used parts, mags etc... as scrap. Lots of unknowns and just the ramblings of seasoned OLD Timers that are left to convey the stories we dream about today.


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:57pm
Ive seen pretty much every type of Carbne Mag, never seen a Jay Scott marked 30rd Magazine.... anyone care to post a few images of the markings?


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 03 2022 at 12:21am
Here you go thirtyround.



-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: May 03 2022 at 12:51am
Thanks, Love the History


Posted By: Dirty30Carbine
Date Posted: Jun 27 2022 at 10:45am
I recently won a Church magazine off Gunbroker for $95 plus shipping. I’m waiting it’s arrival 


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jun 27 2022 at 10:50am
I got one too!


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: Jun 27 2022 at 6:53pm
Very Cool guys, please post some good imagery when you get them in. I was able to acquire 2 Church Mags recently myself!    Cheers! JB


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jun 28 2022 at 2:30pm







Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 28 2022 at 3:59pm
What do you guys value these mags at these days? I always thought of them more as a curiosity, but it looks like they’ve got some real value?


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jun 28 2022 at 4:02pm
I paid $70 for mine, it fell through the cracks on Gunbroker, seller ID'd it as "unknown marking" 


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: Jun 28 2022 at 6:13pm
You got a good deal if this is what you get into and collect, as recent past shows they have went for a lot more, example given a couple months back, a pair sold on GB for $300.00. Basically its worth whatever it is worth to the person interested. Some people know this stuff is drying up and will pay some good $ for it, some dont give 2 hoots. Congrats, M1/M2 Carbine history is very Cool.    


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 28 2022 at 8:49pm
There’s a local shop that’s got several in really good condition for $60 each. Seemed steep for postwar European production, but I guess they are actually a deal. I’ll have to revisit them I guess.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 1:43pm
I saved these photos a year or two ago and meant to post them sooner. The mag sold on gunbroker. Evidently I didn’t save pictures of the mag itself, but I’m 99% certain it was the standard parkerized finish and church marked. If it had been something different I would have saved pictures of that too.






Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 2:54pm
Was dachau-munchen not a concentration sub-camp??


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 4:43pm
Good pictures carbinekid, sure wish you also had a picture of the magazine's markings, although I do not doubt that it may have been a church marked mag.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

Was dachau-munchen not a concentration sub-camp??

Interesting question.  
There are two München sub-camps listed for Dachau. 
Schwester Pia's https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/muenchen-schwabing" rel="nofollow - München-Schwabing  
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agfa-Commando" rel="nofollow - Agfa-Commando at München-Giesing

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erma_Werke" rel="nofollow - the information on Wikopedia , the reformed post-war ERMA, ERMA-Werke, set up in Dachau around 1952. So the address does not seem to be related to the concentration camp or its atrocities.
(Nazi era ERMA had used forced labor at its facilities in Erfurt.)


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 5:47pm
I was curious if the camps had been “upgraded” post war and reused. I know that the mags couldn’t have been made using forced labor. 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jul 02 2022 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by carbinekid carbinekid wrote:

I saved these photos a year or two ago and meant to post them sooner. The mag sold on gunbroker. Evidently I didn’t save pictures of the mag itself, but I’m 99% certain it was the standard parkerized finish and church marked. If it had been something different I would have saved pictures of that too.


That auction started at $250. Eventually it came down on relists, but went for more than expected.

There were no pictures of the magazine. Even though the packaging was opened the seller did not want to pull it out to check to see if it was marked.

As it happens one of our members saw this exact magazine in the sellers shop, same story, he would not allow it to be pulled out to check the marking.

One of our members bought that magazine or it may have been another another in the same packaging. I asked they share the marking and construction features of that magazine. The pictures never came.

So this firmly remains in unknown until one shows up sealed in wrap and can be verified.

Also to add, it is believed that it is from Iserlohn in West Germany via the first page.
Isn't Munich in the south?
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