USGI Oilers
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Carbine Accessories
Forum Description: USGI, Foreign, and Commercial items
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2666
Printed Date: Apr 19 2024 at 8:55am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: USGI Oilers
Posted By: imntxs564
Subject: USGI Oilers
Date Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 3:06pm
I have a Small Collection of Original USGI Oilers that I took a picture of and when I cropped it I noticed something that I never paid attention too. I noticed the different patterns of each Cap. I never knew they were different. Has anyone seen this and can tell me anything about this ?  ------------- Frank |
Replies:
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 4:42pm
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Actually the diamond patterns are also different. That would be due to the amount of pressure used to knurl the cap. Are any caps marked? Possible the straight knurl is a manufacturer other than international silver. The second on left, is it an inverted pattern? |
Posted By: imntxs564
Date Posted: Nov 27 2016 at 5:56pm
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@Dan..Yes..The last one is marked SW inside a Circle. ------------- Frank |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Feb 06 2017 at 10:30pm
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Someone in the Carbine Club reported this same thing many years ago, but no study was ever done on the various knurl patterns on the oilers. Of course, the vast majority of WWII oilers were made by International Silver of Meriden, CT, and obviously the machines that made the knurling underwent resharpening and eventual replacement of the cutters. I actually went to the Meriden, CT Historical Society about 20 years ago, to review the historical production records of IS, hoping to determine exactly when in early 1943 that International Silver changed from marking the oilers with II, IW, IU, IQ, IR, IN, ISP...to the generic IS for the remainder of the war. We know it was done sometime in spring '43, but have never found documentation of the changeover date. I was especially interested in trying to find the identification for the ISP code. Irwin-Pedersen or Std Products? I have always firmly believed it was for Irwin-Pedersen, but other collectors argued just as vehemently, that it was for Std Pro. Sorry to report that I was unsuccessful in both endeavors. All I found were the blueprints for manufacturing the oilers! (as well as other items that IS made for the war effort, including magazines.) On the subject of the ISP oiler identification question, the best argument that I have read, was written by Brian Quick and published in Carbine Club Newsletter 347. It details both arguments, but concludes that available evidence points to Irwin-Pedersen as the recipient of the ISP oilers. Regards, MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 8:09am
| Didn't even know the ISP question was researched in a NL. Will find and read. I have seen 3 original IP's previously unknown to the club. All three were in the 1.7 S/N range. And they all have ISP oilers. A small sample size but I am with you and Brian on this one. More evidence needed...... |
Posted By: David Albert
Date Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 8:46am
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The different patterns observed are from coining, which is a common process in manufacturing. Coined edges can be somewhat decorative, but mostly functional, as with these oilers. My guess is that existing coining fixtures/machines were used by the different oiler manufacturers. I don't think the oiler drawings would have prescribed the exact pattern. The photo is a fun comparison. Coining can enable better grip, and it can serve to avoid injuries, depending upon where it is applied. It's normally used to remove a rough edge. In my manufacturing management days, we had a part that cut a few of our production associates, and we had the drawing for the chassis they were working on revised to call for coined edges. That raised the cost slightly, but the result was that our associates stopped getting hurt, and you could rub your fingers along the formerly sharp edge. It probably helped some end customers, as well, because it involved computer manufacturing, where end user modifications are common. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com ------------- NRA Life Member Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 11:46am
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Thanks, David....Very interesting. As I remember from reviewing those oiler blueprints at Meriden, you are correct in that the exact specs for the "coining" were not prescribed....only that the edge of the cap had that X pattern. Whatever machine and whatever pattern was available to International Silver...that - I'm sure - was "good enough." Regards, MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 07 2017 at 12:41pm
Coining is the process of stamping, cast, die, mold etc. Butt plates were coined. the process to make the edge on the oilers is Knurling. Notice I said Knurl above. this procces was used on the oiler caps. Knurling is the caused by rotating the part in a lathe and the knurl tool could have straight or angled cutter which presses into the part, deforming and raising the metal. the purpose is to make a grip surface, in this case to help unscrew the cap. the one on far right was done with a straight cutter and the others were done with two opposing diagonal cutters. the diamond pattern can change with several variables. they also make a diamond pattern cutter, and a inverted diamond pattern cutter. These have set up issues. look at the second one in on left. This process leaves a rough edge that is usually cleaned up by a quick pass of a cutter or file. The edge could also be smoothed with a roller or former which is a hardened wheel that rolls the edge down. |
David Albert wrote:Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Feb 28 2017 at 5:02pm
I looked at the oilers I have and they all have a diamond pattern with some variances as pointed out above. Secondly I was wanting to ask a question regarding a SW oiler I have. Since the subject is oilers I figure I can jump in here. Riesch's book says SW oilers are stamped on the cap. As it turns out I have one stamped on the bottom and here's a picture. It almost looks as if the fonts are a little different but considering the size and manufacturing techniques I can't tell for sure. Is anybody aware of SW oilers stamped on the bottom?
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Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Feb 28 2017 at 11:29pm
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Very interesting, thanks for the post. I've never seen, nor heard of an SW oiler marked on the bottom, but you've got one! MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 08 2017 at 7:21pm
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Hey imntxs564, Any chance the second oiler from the left is an IR? Are any of the oilers for the same mfg but with different knurl patterns on their cap? Also could you post a pic showing the stamped letters on the bottoms and the one stamped cap in the same order as their respective caps? I'm wanting to do some caparisons with CCNL 98 and what I've been seeing for sale on the "auction" sites. Your oilers appear to be a top notch data point. Thanks for your time.
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Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 8:47pm
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Does anybody have the drawings or at least the dimensions for the original oiler components? I would like to have them all but I'm especially looking for the thickness of the caps and to confirm Riesch's book for the tube diameter being 0.44". Thanks |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 9:48pm
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There is a NOT USGI IR oiler on gunbroker by seller 81mm (Eddy Yuja) |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 09 2017 at 11:45pm
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Hi Sling, "War Baby!" doesn't have any technical specs on the oiler's size. Your best bet would be to visit the Meriden, CT Historical Society. They have the records of International Silver. I visited there a long time ago, hoping to find contract and marking information on the oilers they made....without luck. But I do remember seeing drawings of both the oilers and the magazines they made. Whether they were actual blueprints or just technical illustrations, or what....I cannot remember, sorry. But that is the only source I know for any oiler specs. Good luck, Marty Black ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 5:57am
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I'll see if I can get in touch with them. Would all original oilers be made to the same specs? I may try to mic a couple if I can remember how to use my vernier caliper. (Just got to get a digital model) I had seen 81mm listings and made note of the IR and IQ. That was some good supporting data for my little project on a theory as to the origin of my SW oiler stamped on the bottom. I'm starting to think it wasn't made during WWII or even in the 20th century. FYI, there is a SW stamped on the bottom on ebay which appears to be a supporting data point. If I come up with something I'll post for comments. Thanks
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 10:48am
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For clarity, 81mm pointed out that it was not USGI! he is long known as a reliable seller of carbine parts. Many sellers would dance around with words or not disclose if a parts was reproduction. humpers have been making parts for a long time now. There is a infamous maker of reproduction parts in California that has items listed under several names on multiple auction sites. recently there was a seller who has been selling subjective parts and now selling "rare" oilers with patina and "honest" looking wear on parts. Bottom line at 40 plus bucks for these 3 dollar items it is not a far stretch for someone to sit there and make them appear old. Now consider that in 40 years of collecting carbine data that there have been no reports of SW on the base. All of a sudden 2 pop up on the market. The shame here is that they will become aware of their error and start marking the caps. The seller on Ebay is about 20 minutes away of one said humper of parts. |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 10:56am
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Sling...I would imagine all oilers were made to the same specs; they certainly should've been. After all, all carbine parts were made to be interchangeable. I haven't been following the fakes these days, but I can guarantee you that - in the 1970s and early 1980s - before there were any fake carbine parts at all on the market, collectors could find all three of the non-IS oilers...the BK (Blake Mfg, marked on bottom), Stanley Works (marked SW on top), and the Polley Bros. and Verson (marked on bottom, made in about 1958). I'm unsure about the SW oilers. Collectors assume they are for Winchester, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. International Silver was Winchester's subcontractor for oilers. I too would like to learn more about SW oilers. As for BK, Bill Ricca solved that mystery in Newsletter 333. Blake Mfg of Clinton, MA. made approx 1 million oilers between late 1943-late 1944. Why do we have these oddball oilers, when IS seems to have done an excellent job? Bill Ricca reminds us that the M3 submachine gun (the "Grease Gun") also used the carbine sling and oiler, and so contracts were let to supply that weapon. And as we know, the service life of that weapon in the US military lasted a long, long time....longer than the carbine! Keep digging! Marty Black ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 11:31am
------------- Charles Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 11:38am
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This is the knurling tool (type) I used in my shop from time to time as I did some machine work. ------------- Charles Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 10 2017 at 2:28pm
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Maybe you all have seen this, but after the initial discussions above and in CCNL #98, I realized a few of my oilers don't have a knurl pattern that matches any of these. What I'm seeing on mine is the knurl is a 4-½, ½-4, or ½-3-½ tooth pattern. I'm thinking the ½ differences are attributed to the tool alignment. Some oilers on the auction sites have the ~4 tooth knurl with some appearing to be 3-½, it’s just hard to tell in the provided pictures. If you get the time check out 81mm's "Not USGI", the bottom stamped SW on ebay, a few others on the auction sites, and a bunch of non-IS oilers with original leather washers from the same supplier in Cal listed on a gun auction site (give them credit, they do not say they are USGI). By the way along with my bottom stamped SW I have 4 other non-IS oilers of different makes with this 4-½ tooth pattern (...sigh!) and to go with that they all have leather washers (...double sigh!). One is even in cosmoline which I guess is another attribute to add with the "patina and "honest" looking wear on parts" New2brass stated above. Another feature on the 4 tooth caps is they look to be a smidge thicker, hence my question regarding the spec'd thickness. With my genuine Harbor Freight vernier caliper I measured ~0.1” on the non-4 tooth cap and ~0.12” on the 4 tooth cap. I've included a pic of 6 oilers to see if you can see the difference in thickness. I had forgot about my Yankee Hill Machine oiler and although not in the pic it mic’d at ~0.1” so in 1972 they were still making them the same for the USGI. I've also come across a couple potential differences in the stamped letters on a couple oilers but I’m still cogitating on that. Sorry I got a little long-winded but maybe there's some validity to all this that will help somebody.
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Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 18 2017 at 11:57pm
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Thinking a bit more about oilers.... 1. I found some notes from my International Silver research trip in 1985. There is a book of documents and illustrations on IS's oiler and magazine manufacture at the Meriden Historical Society, 424 West Main Street, Meriden, CT. I hope a new collector pays them a visit to learn what I may have missed. 2. Craig Reisch's oiler identification table on page 148 of his 7th Edition Book, is a "disaster," to use someone else's favorite word. For Winchester, Reisch identifies IW, BW, and SW. IW is correct from first production to early 1943, then IS is how Winchester's oilers were marked. I've never heard of a BW oiler. SW oilers - if they were made for Winchester, he needs to show some proof. The master list of carbine subcontractors lists only International Silver as Winchester's subcontractor for oilers. According to this subcontractor list, Stanley Works (SW) made only 3 items for the carbine: Mags and buttplates for IBM and 30-round mags for Winchester. Perhaps the master list is incomplete, but my guess is that SW oilers are postwar spare parts for the Ordnance Department, or were made for the M3 "Grease Gun," not the carbine. ISP oiler is identified as for Standard Products. Nonsense! International Silver petitioned the government to cease marking oilers specific for carbine manufacturers - II, IW, IN, IU, IR, IQ, ISP - in January 1943, 6 months before Std Pro delivered a carbine. If Std Pro used ISP oilers, than we'd need ISG oilers for Saginaw Steering Gear, which produced carbines BEFORE Std Pro. Although documentation has never been found to prove this one way or the other, experienced collectors will put their money on ISP oilers being for Irwin-Pedersen, but the argument for that is beyond the scope of this posting. See Newsletter 347, by Brian Quick. There is ample evidence that the II, IW, IN, IU, IR, IQ, ISP oilers were dulite/blue in color. They were easily found at gunshows in the 1970s-1980s. The switch to common gray/green parkerizing was made about the same time that International Silver got permission to mark all oilers with the generic IS marking - the spring of 1943. Decades ago, dulite/blue IS oilers could also be found. (I wish I hadn't sold my collection! Argh!) Reisch also lists BK oilers as postwar, but Blake Manufacturing began producing oilers in late 1943 or early 1944, either as Ordnance Department spare parts or for the M3 "Grease Gun." We don't know which. Be careful, guys....All the available collector books - by Ruth, Reisch, Canfield, and Larson contain lotsa errors. Don't believe everything you read!....except maybe MY posts! LOL. Regards, Marty Black ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: David Albert
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 10:37am
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Marty, You should write a book. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com ------------- NRA Life Member Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 10:53am
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Ha! Not me! I would obsess over every word, every sentence. I'd go into "word-smithing overload," fearful of writing something that wasn't quite perfect, something that someone else would find fault with. Authoring a book would kill me, and the damn thing would never get done. I'd continue to proofread it over and over again until I died. I'm happy just to be the old guy "voice of experience" to the new collectors. Thanks for all your input to the Forum, Marty Black ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 11:42am
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Just a pondering...Since all the other manufactures were just two letters, why wouldn't the oiler for the IPs just be something like IP. Why the S in the middle of ISP? |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 12:17pm
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Uh, oh! Pandora's box has just been opened! LOL.....Quick answer is that IP was the assigned code for all parts manufactured in-house by Irwin-Pedersen...so IP could not be used on International Silver's oilers. ISP was chosen, perhaps - just a guess - as a compromise between the names International Silver and Irwin-Pedersen. The Ordnance Department initially set out very specific rules for how parts were to be marked...in regards to the prime contractor (the carbine maker) and the sub-contractor who manufactured parts for it. But as the carbine program expanded to 10 manufacturers and more than 1000 sub-contractors(!), things got very complicated quickly, with various sub-contractors having the same letters in their company name, and thus we see all kinds of parts code markings that "break the rules." It was a confusing mess, to say the least. I'd recommend you get a copy of NL 347, and read the article written by Brian Quick. It's the most concise and logical argument for ISP being the code for Irwin-Pedersen's oilers. And if you want to tie your brain up in a knot, look at Newsletter 384, page 15, for an article by Fred Powers, concerning 5 Standard Products sub-contractors, whose company name contained the letter S, the same letter assigned for the few parts made in-house by Standard Products. Some Ordnance Department clerk must've been pulling his/her hair out in assigning parts codes. They certainly had to get "creative." And adding more confusion, SP and SS magazines are NOT Standard Products mags. Wade Electric Products was a subcontractor of magazines to Saginaw Steering Gear. One would assume they would've been assigned WSG or something similar, but Wade Electric Products just marked their mags with WEP, and didn't bother adding a code for Saginaw. How did this happen? Perhaps they had a direct contract with the Ordnance Department prior to their sub-contract to Saginaw, and never got their code marking reassigned. That certainly would've been easier for them, simplifying their operation, but it broke the rules of the Ordnance Department. No one said that carbine collecting was going to be easy! ha! One last thing: As collectors, we tend to forget that the ONLY reason for the parts code markings, was for quality control purposes, in case parts failed in the field (think of a "recall"). No one in the carbine factories was looking at those codes. I am aware of only one such recall, and that was for a specific heat lot of a Springfield Armory bolt for the Garand rifle. Since the bolts were marked on top, it was easy to find them and remove them from rifles, and from spare parts inventories. MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 3:25pm
| I've read NL 347 followed with 384 pg 15...I'm through pondering for now. :) |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 19 2017 at 11:02pm
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OK Oiler Guys, Here's one for you to figure out....I've got a totally unmarked oiler with a known WWII provenance. Mr. William Doerfner, General Manager of Saginaw Steering Gear from 1941-1965, gave me an un-serial numbered carbine that he brought home from the factory during WWII and used to hunt with at his cabin. John Helveston, SG's "Gun Plant" Manager, had a "presentation type" carbine made for himself, and a nearly identical one made for his boss, Mr. Doerfner. The carbine has an unmarked WWII sling and an unmarked oiler. The oiler has been blued and highly polished, but there is no evidence of a marking being ground off. Both the top and bottom of the oiler are smooth. The oiler has the leather washer and it's never had any oil in it. I assume it's an International Silver oiler, but who knows? I've never seen an unmarked USGI oiler before. My apologies for my poor photo skills - it's hard to take closeup photos of such a shiny piece. BTW, the Helveston carbine (when purchased by a collector) did not have a sling or oiler, so we cannot compare. That carbine was blued, but the blueing has turned to a plum color. Regards, Marty Black     ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 20 2017 at 9:52am
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Now you have me pondering again... At first I thought perhaps the sling/oiler were added way post war using a Yankee Hill Machine oiler from 1972. However this oiler has a leather gasket and the knurl pattern for this one is courser than the Yankee Hill. So this isn't it. As I saw somewhere, perhaps in the middle of these thousands of pages of CCNLs, the finish on the "presentation rifles" was a high gloss blued finish versus typical GI dull finishes. Perhaps IS pulled some oilers prior to final processing and stamping just to polish them up for the presentation rifles and gifts to dignitaries (the guys with the checkbooks). Especially if these rifles were made back when the oilers were still be park'd. It's a thought?
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Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 20 2017 at 10:11am
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Good point, Sling....yes, many (but not all) presentation carbines were blue (often polished to high gloss), and International Silver could've supplied such things to the manufacturers, on an as-needed basis. They probably needed some for themselves as gifts. At the time that SG stopped producing carbines - spring 1944 - oilers were all IS and parkerized (to the best of our knowledge). We will never know exactly when the Doerfner and Helveston carbines were assembled. Both have #1 bands and flip sights. Mr. Helveston's carbine has been blued and polished, but Mr. Doerfner's has GI parkerizing. And even the bolt is parkerized - yes, I know that's "impossible" for a WWII bolt, but there you have it! (Speaking of parkerized bolts, Mr. Runchey, the #3 man at Saginaw, who ran the IP/S'G' plant, put together an S'G' presentation-type carbine for Mr. Doerfner. It is totally parkerized, including the bolt!...but I digress again.) The brilliant blue oiler is the only blue part on this carbine. Curiously, both of these unmarked carbines have highly-figured, highly polished Q-RMC high-wood stocks (and handguards)! "Never say never, and never say always!" Thanks much, MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 25 2017 at 4:19pm
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I took Marty’s advice and did the next best thing to visiting the Meriden Historical Society, I emailed them and got a prompt reply. They sent me pictures of the 3 oiler drawings they could find. Unfortunately drawings A196458 for the cap and A196456 for the washer were not in the book with the other drawings. The Research Center is only open on Wednesdays so they will try again then. So Marty, even though it was a few years ago, you were probably the last guy to look at these drawings which leads to the question… “What did you do with them?” Although the oiler drawing is included in NL 165, I have included a copy they sent me below. If you compare this one to the NL there are a few subtle differences. This one doesn’t say Master File but has a couple additional markings including an Eng Dept date stamp that looks like Dec 12, 1941. So I’m not sure which is more correct. I also attached a copy of the Tube and Tube Ring drawings and for your viewing enjoyment. What I find most interesting and has me pondering is the initial date on the drawings of Dec 10, 1941. Considering what happened three days before that makes you wonder if they had been going along, reviewing specs at a leisurely pace but it all changed that Sunday morning and they had to get things done. As the folks at the Meriden Historical Society told me…”Stay tuned” and I’ll see if they have any luck this week locating the other two drawings.    |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 25 2017 at 5:34pm
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Ha! Good for you, Sling! But naw, I didn't steal nuttin'. I went there with only one big goal in mind - I wanted to prove once and for all that ISP oilers were for Irwin-Pedersen. My minor secondary goal was to determine when - in spring 1943, International Silver stopped marking oilers (as a subcontractor) for specific carbine manufacturers, and adopted the generic IS marking for all carbine manufacturers. But I was a dismal failure on both counts. Although there were some documents in the Int'l Silver file, they did not contain any information of value to me. And I really wasn't interested in the blueprints of either the oilers or the mags, or the other items that Int' Silver made for the war industry....so I went back to Illinois empty-handed. That was in the summer of 1985 - the woman whom I dealt with was Bernice Morehouse. I've got some oiler and magazine manufacturing notes that she typed up for me. I'll scan them tonight and ask Ted S to post them in this thread, so everyone can have a look. Congrats, Marty Black ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 25 2017 at 6:01pm
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Actually, looking at Mrs. Morehouse's letter again after 30 years or more, I see that she mentions that International Silver stopped marking their magazines with the II, IW, etc in April 1943 (and presumably went with the generic IS). This may also be the time that International Silver stopped marking their oilers for the carbine manufacturers and adopted the generic IS marking. Makes sense to me..... Re: the oiler markings, International Silver made two requests to the Carbine Industry Integrating Committee (CIIC). Their first letter, dated Jan 14, 1943 and sent via the Springfield Ordnance District, requested to eliminate the prime contractor marking from their oilers and use only a generic IS marking. On Jan 25, 1943, another letter was sent, this time directly to the Committee requesting to either use the generic IS marking, or eliminate the marking altogether (because they were the only company making oilers for the carbine industry.) See Carbine Club newsletter 253. I imagine that Ordnance and the CIIC had a lot on their plate in February 1943 with the Carbine Industry Expansion Program, among a myriad of other high priorities that needed their immediate attention...and it may have taken until April 1943 before the IS marking decision was reached. Regards, Marty Black   |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 6:55am
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That is very interesting and thanks for sharing. We just need the ingredients now that we have the recipes. As for my latest Meriden oilers update it is unfortunate that the two drawings not in the book, especially the one for the cap I so desperately wanted, could not be located. However he did send me a picture of a photo that was on the cover page for that section of the oilers. He sent it as a pdf so I've had to copy and paste into Paint to make a jpg. (That in itself was a challenge to my computer skills). Take note of the picture's title and then checkout the end of the two oilers laying down. They are II. I don't think this is any big deal and requires re-writing the book on which oiler went with which carbine. I do wonder if this was so early on that the carbine, having been a Winchester prototype was being referred to as a Winchester Carbine? Also the knurling on the caps looks like knobby off-road tires.  |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 30 2017 at 10:49am
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Thanks Sling....I am quite certain that the term "Winchester Carbine," was often used during WWII - especially in Connecticut (home of Winchester's factory), as ONLY an acknowledgement of their invention. And over the years, we've seen Winchester-sponsored WWII-vintage ads and newspaper articles refer to the M1 Carbine as the "Winchester carbine." Besides, the word "Winchester" has always had more "sex appeal" than the word Inland. :) Plus, Mrs. Morehouse's notes (middle of 1st page) above imply that Winchester placed the first order with International Silver for oilers in March 1942. But Inland surely had an order in, at about the same time, because Inland delivered their first carbines in June, 3 months ahead of Winchester. But, while Connecticut was singing the praises of their hometown boy Winchester, we know that Ohio was singing the praises of Inland! :) I wouldn't "read anything" into the title of that photo, alongside II oilers. I doubt the photographer paid any attention to the markings. Regards, MB ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: sling00
Date Posted: Nov 14 2023 at 7:07am
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Good morning all, Perusing oilers on an online auction site, I was reminded of the questionable authenticity of some oilers. aka some are fakes. So on behalf of new members and those of us who forget, keep in mind some oilers are not genuine USGI. Fortunately, and to those sellers credit, some descriptions do not say they are USGI but emphasis the markings. Beware of semantics. For others the seller may just not know. Same thing with mag pouches. In any case just a friendly reminder.
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Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Nov 16 2023 at 6:59pm
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Now for a bit of trivia....The term "coining" comes from...you guessed it the edges of coins. Now why were the edges of coins made that way? It was to prevent anyone from shaving a tiny bit of gold or silver from the edge of the coin and reducing the amount of gold or silver in that coin thus reducing the amount of precious metal in the coin and hence reducing the weight/actual metal value of the coin. ------------- OGCA Life member NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |